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zompist bboard :: View topic - Aʻatun Scratchpad: Inventory questions
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Aʻatun Scratchpad: Inventory questions
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45071
Page 4 of 5

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

The languages once barred gemination; instead, gemination will now be marked by what started as palatalization ([ik.nɑ'sʲɑ→ik.nɑ'ssɑ]) or an elided liquid ([ɰi'sol.tɑ→ɰi'so.ttɑ]).

While not gemination, the above conditions apply to /xʲ/, etc. as well ([in.tus'tr̥ʲɑ→in.tusʈ'ʈ͡ʂɑ]).

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

As I've stated before, Altrunians would have devoiced /b→p/, etc. Later on, they respelled the devoiced consonants. Would a /j→ʝ→ç/ progression make sense in this context? /j/ can't, merely, vanish offhand because it would necessitate insertion of /ʔ/ as they'd go out of their way to retain a historical prevocalic consonant.

Author:  Travis B. [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

One thing to remember is that people do not know how past speakers spoke their language; people don't do things or not do things sound-change-wise because of how things are "supposed" to be or because people in the past did things a certain way. To invoke this requires that other varieties are spoken alongside a given variety that can influence it, or the existence of an orthographic tradition that can be a source of spelling pronunciations.

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Languages spoken on Altrunia, such as Common and Sphinx, coalesced into Altrunian around 100 years after the planet was unified. Sometime before Altrunians conquered Protewa, most of the voiced stops, affricates, and fricatives were devoiced (later to be respelled). Eventually, the religious figures created Pahus by removing most palatal consonants, eliminating all palatalizations from the language, changing /l/ to /w/ (word-initially or -medially) or [ʔV] (postvocalically) (coincidental respelling), and changing /j→ʝ/. Eventually, the final change migrated to the parent language. Is the /ʝ→ç/ needed to eliminate voiced consonants from Altrunian/Galactic Standard an attested change? The /ʝ→ʃ/ required to eliminate palatals from Pahus?

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Fri May 11, 2018 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Afwia is the current spelling of Alfia following /ɑ/ merging into /ɔ/ (later changed back to /ɑ/) and /l/ merging into /w/. Is ['ɑf.fwa] or ['ɑf.w:a] a more natural outcome, considering the new geminiation rule?

Author:  Travis B. [ Fri May 11, 2018 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  Vijay [ Fri May 11, 2018 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Malayalam has /jj/ and /ʋʋ/.

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sat May 12, 2018 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Which of /p f p̪͡f ʋ̥ ɰ̊ ɥ̊ k͡p/ are likely outcomes for /ʍ/? They try to keep, at least, one place of articulation constant.

Author:  Travis B. [ Sat May 12, 2018 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sat May 12, 2018 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

, /ʍ→f/, while unattested, is quite possible (cf. /w→p/). As it stands, /ʍ/ is their only approximate because /l/ merged into /w/ and /j/ fortited to /ʝ/ before devoicing to /ç/.

Author:  Travis B. [ Sat May 12, 2018 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

IIRC ʍ > f does occur in some Scots varieties.

The thing is that it seems like you intentionally seek out rare or otherwise highly unlikely sound changes and have a poor understanding of how sound change happens (it does not happen because a language is "supposed to" be a certain way, and people have no memory of how people spoke any more than a few generations ago unless such is codified in a standard variety that is synchronically extant or otherwise reinforced by orthography). I would recommend that you work on acquiring a good working knowledge of linguistics at this point.

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sat May 12, 2018 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

I've decided to leave /ʍ/ alone. I'm rushed at this point because my collaborator went behind my back and scheduled one RP a year, with the one the languages are for planned for next year. Thus, I only have six-and-a-half months to get the basics down. Hells, I'd be much further along at this point if I'd used the current setting right away. Given this timeframe, I'm trying to keep the changes from Galactic Standard to Pahus simple because I can't construct a second language if the first is giving me this much trouble. Of course, this may be a lose-lose situation for me.

Author:  Hallow XIII [ Sun May 13, 2018 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sun May 13, 2018 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Is /l→ʋ/ a likely change?

Author:  Zaarin [ Fri May 18, 2018 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  Travis B. [ Fri May 18, 2018 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

I should also state that often changes that are implausible as single steps are often plausible when broken up into a chain of intermediate steps which are each plausible.

Author:  Vijay [ Fri May 18, 2018 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

There are cases of /l/ changing to [u] in some Dardic languages. Surely getting [ʋ] from there should be pretty trivial. Even as a direct change, I'm not sure /l/ > [ʋ] is really implausible.

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sun May 20, 2018 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Okay. Thanks. What are possible endpoints for /fʲ θʲ ðʲ ʋʲ/, if any exist?

Author:  Zaarin [ Sun May 20, 2018 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

/ç ç ʝ ʝ/ or /ç ç ʝ j/ are perhaps the most obvious short of depalatalizing. /ʋʲ/ > /v/ is also not inconceivable. I'd buy /θʲ/ > /ɕ~ʃ/.

Author:  Vijay [ Sun May 20, 2018 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

I would expect either fronting of some sort or no change. (That's not to say there aren't necessarily other possible outcomes).

Author:  yangfiretiger121 [ Sat May 26, 2018 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

Okay. I may end up with a four (/i e̞ u ɑ/ or /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/) or five (/i e̞ u o̞ ɑ/) system. If there's a four vowel system, is /u>o̞/ or /o̞>u/ more likely?

Author:  Zaarin [ Sat May 26, 2018 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


Author:  Vijay [ Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions

I find /i e̞ u ɑ/ more likely than /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/.

Author:  Zaarin [ Sat May 26, 2018 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Altrunian Conlang Scratchpad: Inventory questions


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