zompist bboard

TOC post. Content to follows.

Not Related To Irish At All
Absolutely not. Never seen it, never heard of it. Definitely didn't browse the wiki page and then fart this out.

Phonology

Vowels

Strong Vowels

Pure Vowels

<á ó ú / é í ý>
[a: o: u: / e: i: y:]
<á ó ú> are inherently broad, <é í ý> inherently slender.

Mixed Vowels

<áo áu oá uá>
[æ:] (entirely broad)
<áe ái áy eá iá yá>
[a:] +slender on one side

<óa óu aó uó >
[ʌ:] (broad)
<óe ói óy óe ói óy>
[o:] +slender

<úa úo aú oú>
[ʊ:] (broad)
<úe úi úy úe úi úy>
[u:] +slender

<éa éo aé oé>
[ɛ:] (slender)
<éa éo éu aé oé ué>
[e:] +broad

<íe íy eí yí>
[ɪ:] (slender)
<ía ío íu aí oí uí>
[i:] +broad

<ýe ýi eý iý>
[ʏ:] (slender)
<ýa ýo ýu aý oý uý>
[y:] +broad

Weak Vowels
(Unstressed)

<a o *u / e i *y>
[ə] (broad / slender)
(u and y only occuring rarely outside of interjective purposes)

<ao au>
[æ] (broad)
<ae ai au>
[æ] (slender)

<ua uo>
[ʊ] (broad)
<ue ui uy>
[ʊ] (slender)

<oa ou>
[ʌ] (broad)
<oe oi oy>
[ʌ] (slender)

<ei ey>
[ɛ] (slender)
<ea eo eu>
[ɛ] (broad)

<ie iy>
[ɪ] (slender)
<ia io iu>
[ɪ] (broad)

<ye yi>
[ʏ] (slender)
<ya yo yu>
[ʏ] (broad)


Meager Vowels

<áh óh úh / éh íh ý>
[ə:] (broad / slender)
Restricted to slang &c words, e.g. *láoss/laaoss “healthy”> *Láhss!/Laahss! “Get well!”
(Schwaification = casualization is apparently my conlanging signature.)


@ Make second post of stuff cut off by char limit.

I've no idea what the thread title says or what it's relevance is.

But "saying something casually" is not phonemic and nobody's going to spell it differently. Vowels (and consonants) are reduced in allegro and informal speech around the world; but this is not a phonemic distinction or one that people generally write down.

Salmoneus wrote:I've no idea what the thread title says or what it's relevance is.

"Kusuri" (薬) in Japanese means 'medicine'. The title is 薬箱 'medicine box' - so basically, kusuri's thread.

Salmoneus wrote: But "saying something casually" is not phonemic and nobody's going to spell it differently. Vowels (and consonants) are reduced in allegro and informal speech around the world; but this is not a phonemic distinction or one that people generally write down.

Well that sucks.


Does it mb count if it's not the only way to say something casually? Like it's an explicit, Verlan sort of process?
Because in my mind it's not the same as just slurring stuff together and being lazy (there are other specific processes for that that I haven't posted, like when people ignore the broad/slender distinctions or drop vowels between similar consonants). It's affected, not natural. Like if there was some terrible youth trend of pronouncing cool words with a weird vowel. "shooting a gen", "driving a cor", "making leve and doing sax" idk

Or I could just steal tested and proven Verlan.
It might be vaguely interesting if the slender/broad quality of consonants didn't switch around when vowels did...

Maybe I could use that switch as the whole process.
áten (B-S) becomes áeteean? aaeteean or átzenz (S-B).
I feel like that would be more cutesy, like baby talk, or "schm-" words, and "doggo" &c.

But would that also be something that people wouldn't do consciously? Are slang-ifications always more obvious, on a higher level than this? Done with suffixes on known words, and compounds of known words, etc.?
I've never really considered people's own awareness of language before.

kusuri wrote:Like if there was some terrible youth trend of pronouncing cool words with a weird vowel. "shooting a gen", "driving a cor", "making leve and doing sax" idk

Holy shit, I love you for this.

...as for everything else, I can't really say anything except that I like the vowels and don't think it's unrealistic to have different informal spellings. Even English does that; not exactly like your hilarious hypothetical examples, but "eye dialect" spellings like car as cah, dude as dood, etc. are well-established things some people do at least in certain contexts, even if mostly for humour.

There are also people who can't spell things correctly because they either don't care enough to learn or have a learning disability (or had low quality education), but that's also part of slangification to some extent at least when it comes to so-called "lower-class" speech/writing, so I think reducing vowels to schwa and spelling words differently from the standard form because of that makes sense if there's an established spelling convention for the schwa, even if it's only within a small community of speakers.

Salmoneus wrote:But "saying something casually" is not phonemic and nobody's going to spell it differently. Vowels (and consonants) are reduced in allegro and informal speech around the world; but this is not a phonemic distinction or one that people generally write down.

Well, informal Finnish is often written very differently from formal Finnish. There are no different phonemes in speech and as such couldn't possibly be in writing, but one thing I always love to bring up is the pronunciation of /d/ as [ɾ] and spelling it as <r>. Now, spelling it as <r> is admittedly a dialectal thing (and in those dialects it can even be pronounced as [r] like the default pronunciation of /r/), but people who don't speak such dialects sometimes do it jokingly; pronouncing it as [ɾ] and as such making it identical to /r/ intervocalically is common informally, though, and it wouldn't be a big step to spell it <r> too. (But if you go overboard by not trilling any /r/, you sound like a foreigner. I feel like that's important to note.)

you mean like this?

finlay wrote:you mean like this?

Exactly like that.

Vlürch wrote: Holy shit, I love you for this.

Consonants
Ŋ ŋ Ŋ ŋ Ŋ ŋ Ŋ ŋ Ŋ ŋ Ŋ ŋ

C [broad] [slender]

p [pw~f] [pj~p]
c [ts~s] [tʃ~ʃ]
k [kw~hw~h] [kj~k]
b z g [voiced] [lazy] (~dz~z okay, ~dʒ only here, ~ʒ for r only)

m [mw~m] [mj~m] (~m esp sylb end)
n [nw~n] [nj~n] (~n esp sylb end)
ŋ [ŋ] [ɲ]
l [lw~l] [lj~l] (~l esp sylb end)
r [dw~r] [rj~ʒ] (~r/ʒ esp sylb end)
v [ɹ] [ʋ]
j [j] [ɹ]


Full allophony TBD.


Syllable Struccccture

(C)V(C)

Maybe:
p/c/k/b/z/g + v r l j
m n ŋ v l r j + plosies


Changing Type:

h is used before/after compound consonants, to indicate that they are slender or broad against expectations, e.g:
leónc [ljo:nts] vs. leónch [ljo:ntʃ]
loénc [lwe:ntʃ] vs. loénch [lwe:nts]
ckó [tsho:~tskwo:~tho:~thwo:] vs chkó [tʃko:~tʃho:~tho:] vs. ckhó [tskjo:]
vá [ɹa:] vs. vhá [ʋa:]

Compare traditional word ceáec to newfangling chách; both [tʃa:tʃ].


Example Words

cáon ['tsæ:n]
eibýr [ɛ'bjy:ʒ]
vá-éj [,ɹa:'e:ɹ]