Linguistic Quackery Thread, take 2

[Pthagnar]

she is wonderful. she really has the fluid, magical style of crankdom down.

[----]

All of her conclusions are like some six degrees of Kevin Bacon shit

[WeepingElf]

Another gem from Octaviano, which he posted on the Substratumlanguages mailing list yesterday:

In the Eteocretan-Greek bilingual Dreros I inscription () there're the forms isalabre, isaluria, which have tentatively translated as 'goat chesse' (*isa- 'goat' and *labre 'chesse') in an attempt to match the extant Greek text. However, by a fortunate chance I've just come the name of an Urartian city (in Assyrian sources): Ispilibria, Ispilabria, Ispallure, whose similarity to the Eteocretan forms is striking if the latter had p > 0 as in Celtic. In fact, -bria, -bre are two common evolution of Celtic -briga 'fortress' in Hispano-Celtic.

So I think we've got a compound of two roots: *spil- /*spal- >Ispil-, Is(p)al- and *-briga > -bria/-uria, -bre/-ure, respectively non-IE and Celtic.

Apparently, Celtic and Eteocretan were spoken in ancient Urartu (NE Turkey/Armenia around 600 BC, basically)!

[Bristel]

Apparently, Celtic and Eteocretan were spoken in ancient Urartu (NE Turkey/Armenia around 600 BC, basically)!

Those Celts sure got around!

I wonder how often is he laughed out of conlang and linguistics groups?

[Shm Jay]

Evidently not often enough.

[WeepingElf]

One must note that Octaviano has improved his social skills since he was banned from the ZBB and the Nostratic-L mailing list. He is now quite polite, no longer accuses those who criticize his methodology and his hypotheses of ad hominem attacks, etc. However, his hypotheses are as potty as ever and also remain permanently unclear because he never lays them out in a way that one understands what he really means; and trying to argue with him is still futile as he constantly dodges questions and refuses to give evidence; also, of course, he still hasn't grasped the notion of regular sound correspondences.

Another fruitless debate with Octaviano that happened about a year ago is preserved for posterity here.

[WeepingElf]

Here's another find, this time not from Octaviano, but from a similar crank: Uralic has relatives in California!

[marconatrix]

Apparently, Celtic and Eteocretan were spoken in ancient Urartu (NE Turkey/Armenia around 600 BC, basically)!

Those Celts sure got around!

They did make it to Angora ... but what has that to do with the price of cheese?

I wonder how often is he laughed out of conlang and linguistics groups?

OMG it's HIM!

[Bristel]

Not getting where you're going with this, marconatrix...

I'm not Octaviano. THANK GOD.

And if you meant "it's him" as in "it's him, he's banned everywhere", then yes, I imagine that he is.

[gach]

Some linguists have strange ideas about language evolution. Basically they are saying that proto languages don't exist and there is only language contact and mixing.

[WeepingElf]

Some linguists have strange ideas about language evolution. Basically they are saying that proto languages don't exist and there is only language contact and mixing.

Which is, BTW, precisely what Octaviano thinks about Indo-European.

[marconatrix]

Actually I don't think this is quackery, so maybe it deserves a new thread, still what do you all think of this? To me it makes about as much sense as anything else and seems to be looking for causes etc.

http://www.academia.edu/2944128/Indo-Eu ... ion_Cycles

[WeepingElf]

Actually I don't think this is quackery, so maybe it deserves a new thread, still what do you all think of this? To me it makes about as much sense as anything else and seems to be looking for causes etc.

http://www.academia.edu/2944128/Indo-Eu ... ion_Cycles

First impression: It is not quackery at all, but a plausible hypothesis that is at least worthy of discussion. Thank you for sharing it!

[marconatrix]

If it's worth discussing, then someone please start a thread in the appropriate forum.

[Click]

I found this a few minutes ago. It's a paper that connects Niger-Congo and Basque.

[KathTheDragon]

Looks like they're throwing in Etruscan too.

[linguoboy]

I found this a few minutes ago. It's a paper that connects Niger-Congo and Basque.

The word "two" bi, bi-ga, bi-da in Basque relates to Bantu bili "two" (Johnston 1919 - 22 : 32), and ultimately to Niger-Congo bi "breasts"

Because we all know how the traditional way of counting to two among primitive peoples is to point once to each breast.

[patiku]

Is This How Our Ancestors Sounded? Linguist Recreates Proto-Indo-European Language

I don't know how much this qualifies to be in this thread, but the "news" is that a professor recorded himself speaking his own reconstruction of PIE. The real gold is to be found in the comments. Who knew there were PIE deniers?

I have a JD and a Masters in Psychology; admittedly, I have no academic degree or expertise in linguistics. However, I do know the difference between theories and facts; for better or worse, one of my pet peeves is when academics or scientists put forth their theories as factual or supported by empirical evidence. One need not know squat about the comparative method, employed as a means to arrive at a THEORETICAL language based on the features of at least two similar languages, to discern the difference between assumptions and facts. Those are the last keystrokes I'm wasting on this now boring and frivolous topic.

an addition: What about Celtic? I studied Irish and I feel nothing Celtic at all in the language. Obviously I am not an expert and cannot read the script that has been written although it looks suspiciously like Urdu. I would love to see the language put into the Roman alphabet just so that it may be analyzed more easily by laymen such as myself

Um, no. I'm sure they did not sound like that. First of all, anyone who has traveled in tribal areas of the world knows that the manner of speech is very much influenced by gender. A deep voice and a masculine delivery are required for a man. ...something this guy did not master before attempting to approximate this theorized ancient language.

[gach]

Who knew there were PIE deniers?

You can find deniers of everything, there are even some poor bastards who are denying climate change. I find the sort of denialism you see here rather charming.

Um, no. I'm sure they did not sound like that. First of all, anyone who has traveled in tribal areas of the world knows that the manner of speech is very much influenced by gender. A deep voice and a masculine delivery are required for a man. ...something this guy did not master before attempting to approximate this theorized ancient language.

Heh, clearly the supposed femininity of the record is the most blatant academic error here.

[Drydic]

obligatory

[sangi39]

Is This How Our Ancestors Sounded? Linguist Recreates Proto-Indo-European Language

I don't know how much this qualifies to be in this thread, but the "news" is that a professor recorded himself speaking his own reconstruction of PIE. The real gold is to be found in the comments. Who knew there were PIE deniers?

...

Another one I found kind of funny is:

If you're interested in a guaranteed academic failure which cannot be disproved, this is "research" a perfect target.

I just have one question, thought: "How does one replicate a spoken language, unheard for thousands of years, one which has never been written?"

Sure some other academician has embarked on the equally doomed quest and made up a written version of a language which was never written (nor heard). Is that a rational basis to "recreate" the spoken version of this fantasy language?

Boys, if you can create this "work" from thin air, I can only be thankful that you haven't undertaken the study of actual, verifiable history. I can only imagine the hash you'd make of THAT.

Followed later (same commenter):

Another supposed analysis gone completely wrong through lack of evidence.

I adhere to the scientific method almost exclusively. That is why such crackpottery is repubnant (mis-spelling intended) to me.

As stated by another commenter (ksher), "The written lines you see are transcriptions of what PIE might have sounded like" You DO see where this defense goes wrong don't you. The words "may have sounded like" are quite telling of wingnuttery when applied to a language that has never been written nor heard spoken ... that is, any attempt at replication is nothing but a simple guess.

Certainly no one would dare believe that this attempt is the result of science.

It's always fun to see people who haven't really looked at how a given discipline works and then state that it "isn't science". I think it might even beet geneticists trying their hand at linguistics.

I think there's a fairly good point in there somewhere, but it doesn't seem to have been well thought out

[Drydic]

Is This How Our Ancestors Sounded? Linguist Recreates Proto-Indo-European Language

I don't know how much this qualifies to be in this thread, but the "news" is that a professor recorded himself speaking his own reconstruction of PIE. The real gold is to be found in the comments. Who knew there were PIE deniers?

...

Another one I found kind of funny is:

If you're interested in a guaranteed academic failure which cannot be disproved, this is "research" a perfect target.

I just have one question, thought: "How does one replicate a spoken language, unheard for thousands of years, one which has never been written?"

Sure some other academician has embarked on the equally doomed quest and made up a written version of a language which was never written (nor heard). Is that a rational basis to "recreate" the spoken version of this fantasy language?

Boys, if you can create this "work" from thin air, I can only be thankful that you haven't undertaken the study of actual, verifiable history. I can only imagine the hash you'd make of THAT.

Followed later (same commenter):

Another supposed analysis gone completely wrong through lack of evidence.

I adhere to the scientific method almost exclusively. That is why such crackpottery is repubnant (mis-spelling intended) to me.

As stated by another commenter (ksher), "The written lines you see are transcriptions of what PIE might have sounded like" You DO see where this defense goes wrong don't you. The words "may have sounded like" are quite telling of wingnuttery when applied to a language that has never been written nor heard spoken ... that is, any attempt at replication is nothing but a simple guess.

Certainly no one would dare believe that this attempt is the result of science.

It's always fun to see people who haven't really looked at how a given discipline works and then state that it "isn't science". I think it might even beet geneticists trying their hand at linguistics.

I think there's a fairly good point in there somewhere, but it doesn't seem to have been well thought out

They have a slight truth, that language reconstruction is inherently not unquestionably provable without texts being discovered, but their conclusion of "so you should never try" makes me wish to drop heavy weights on their heads.

[Particles the Greek]

Here's another find, this time not from Octaviano, but from a similar crank: Uralic has relatives in California!

Not surprising: everyone has relatives in California Was Octaviano the one who claimed that all languages come from Basque?

For fun, someone with a sufficently well-developed conlang should write it up in a suitably academic format and style and try to pass it off as a real language, and see who's fooled. The results might be surprising.

[Morrígan]

Was Octaviano the one who claimed that all languages come from Basque?

Not quite, he's not Edo Nyland level crazy. He did, however, claim that Basque was related to a unified North-Caucasian family in a Vasco-Caucasian superfamily, which once covered Old Europe, and that basically every word in Indo-European language without a proper etymology is actually a VC substrate loan.

His attempts at proving this involve the worst kind of chance resemblance between items. And finally, the "North Caucasian" that he used was that 'reconstructed' by the (in)famous S. Starostin.

[ol bofosh]

Not surprising: everyone has relatives in California

I was going to object, but then I thought my girlfriend's godmother lives there (stretches the term "relative" a bit, but it's the best I have).