Venting thread that still excludes eddy (2)

[Travis B.]

I strongly suspect this is reflective of a deeper underlying issue, and the fact of whether bringing in a garbage cart is actually worth getting upset about is irrelevant.

The whole suddenly going from everything-is-perfect to angry-irritable-and-with-suicidal-thoughts thing is really obviously indicating that this is an issue to talk to a doctor about.

[linguoboy]

I strongly suspect this is reflective of a deeper underlying issue, and the fact of whether bringing in a garbage cart is actually worth getting upset about is irrelevant.

If there's one thing I've learned from working to maintain healthy relationships, it's that the argument is pretty much never about the thing it's about. That is, the proximate cause (taking out the trash, buying a pair of headphones, painting the fireplace, texting before you leave, etc.) is simply a catalyst for underlying issues (respect for personal choices, feelings of inadequacy and insecurity, equality within the relationships, etc.).

[Koko]

I fear I may be developing depression, or something of the sort. Irritability is a strong indicator of depression, and given my anxiety and a previous bout of apathy it doesn't seem farfetched.

At least today I feel better, despite waking up feeling pretty awful.

May I ask what age you are?

No, because age has nothing to do with it.

[Imralu]

So, I seriously meet the guy of my dreams and he's fucking nice and really fucking into me and ... *tada* I find out I'm basically fucking asexual, and not in the cool "this is OK" way, but in the "every part of me wants something different" way.

[Koko]

Are you aromantic, though? Do you want any romantic relationship?

[finlay]

I fear I may be developing depression, or something of the sort. Irritability is a strong indicator of depression, and given my anxiety and a previous bout of apathy it doesn't seem farfetched.

At least today I feel better, despite waking up feeling pretty awful.

May I ask what age you are?

No, because age has nothing to do with it.

you're like 16, though. it has everything to do with it. 16's a pretty horrible age.

[Salmoneus]

So, I seriously meet the guy of my dreams and he's fucking nice and really fucking into me and ... *tada* I find out I'm basically fucking asexual, and not in the cool "this is OK" way, but in the "every part of me wants something different" way.

If you're not just disinterested in sex, but actively repulsed by sex and every part of you wants to avoid it... that's probably not 'asexuality' in a character trait sense, but rather An Issue that you might want to talk to a professional about, particularly if it's negatively impacting your social life.

[Society today has created a dangerous trap, in which all aspects of character and behaviour come to be seen as parts of "identity", and hence unchangeable, or bad to change. Some things are, of course, fixed parts of who you are. But others can actually be treated, and refusing to do so, preferring suffering to change when change is possible, is like a diabetic refusing to take insulin injections because they're an aninsulinic and that's just part of who they are...]

EDIT: if that requires further philosophical justification... there is from an ethical point of view a big difference between choosing not to do something because it doesn't interest you, you don't enjoy it, or you just prioritise other things... and choosing not to do something because it frightens you, revulses you, disgusts you, etc. In the former case, OK, you make your choice, and maybe there's no clear reason to want to change that choice. But in the latter case, you're not really making a choice, just being steered by uncontrollable impulses - and even if the 'choice' you make isn't bad per se, there are reasons for you to want to have been able to make that choice more freely. So seeking to remove an aversion is very different ethically from seeking to add an attraction.
[It's not a completely sure principle - for instance, in the field of morality, I'm quite happy with people being unable to commit murder because it disgusts them. But it's a good first step, I think, in distinguishing good and bad attempts to change 'identity']

[faiuwle]

Plenty of asexuals are sex-repulsed, and I think fine with that? There are sometimes people who are just repressed or whatever who think they are asexual but turn out not to be, and some people, like Imralu, don't like being asexual, but that doesn't really have anything to do with being sex-repulsed.

[Imralu]

Are you aromantic, though? Do you want any romantic relationship?

No and yes respectively. I think anyway. I get sick of people when I spend too much time with anyone but I also crave it.

May I ask what age you are?

No, because age has nothing to do with it.

you're like 16, though. it has everything to do with it. 16's a pretty horrible age.

Agreed. 16 is awful!

If you're not just disinterested in sex, but actively repulsed by sex and every part of you wants to avoid it... that's probably not 'asexuality' in a character trait sense, but rather An Issue that you might want to talk to a professional about, particularly if it's negatively impacting your social life.

Yeah. I don't think it's a character trait. It's an psychological issue and I know where it comes from. I've never seen it from up this close in practice though. (With my ex, I was in denial about all of this. I got through it by blocking him out and we barely even touched each other. He touched me - I blocked it out. I hardly touched him except for hugs, kisses and loving caresses.) Like, very early on, I get turned on but the more stimulation I get, the closer I get to a point where it gets to be too much and it gets completely shut down. I stop feeling anything as sexual. It still feels intense, but no longer in a sexual way. He wants to help and he keeps asking me what I want him to do and I just don't know. He asks what kind of porn I watch and I just don't answer. I can't. Truthfully, I don't even watch porn. It's not like I'm a prude. It doesn't really bother me ... except that it bothers me that it does nothing for me. I'm very, very attracted to men, a subset anyway, but none of my fantasies about them involve sex ... or even two people interacting with each other, and certainly no one interacting with me ... but it's not like I don't have a sex-drive, it's just that my sex-drive is not for sex. I have tried to stay optimistic and think that the enjoyment will come back if I relax and keep going. So we keep going but the more I try, the closer I get to a point where I can't bear it anymore and I've ended up in tears twice with this guy. He's really sensitive and understanding, but he doesn't really know how to deal with a crying man in his bed and I'm so conscious of how fucked up I am and I really want to enjoy this but I can't. I'm seeing my counsellor on Tuesday ... but I need an actual therapist. I don't know how to fix this and I just feel like I'm about to have my heart ripped out of me. I'm so sensitive and I'm with this huge, hulking slab of a man, over 2m tall, very confident and knows what he's doing sexually and I feel like this tiny little quivering heap of insecurity and issues and it's only because of what's going on inside me.

[Society today has created a dangerous trap, in which all aspects of character and behaviour come to be seen as parts of "identity" ...

I agree. I know the label asexual doesn't fit me and I only said it because I don't really know what else to say except I'm incredibly fucked up about sex. And I know, in theory, with therapy, I can work on this, and it's not necessarily a fixed, unchangeable part of my character, but it's hard to feel optimistic.

Plenty of asexuals are sex-repulsed, and I think fine with that? There are sometimes people who are just repressed or whatever who think they are asexual but turn out not to be, and some people, like Imralu, don't like being asexual, but that doesn't really have anything to do with being sex-repulsed.

Yeah ... I'm not really repulsed ... or at least that's not the major issue ... but there's some kind of block there that shuts it down.

[faiuwle]

Yeah, sexuality is fluid and there's no reason to adopt a label if you're not comfortable with it.

[Salmoneus]

With respect, and hoping I don't come across as intrusive or gratuitous* - and please, do feel free to ignore me if you think the conversation is inappropriate - have you maybe thought about whether it's the, as it were, physical side of sex per se, or alternatively the sociological context of sex, that you have difficulty with? What I mean is, is it the physical sensations of sexual stimulation that turn you off, or is it the context of being sexually stimulated by someone else that turns you off?

I'm not a sex therapist, but I would think that would be one of the first things they'd try to narrow in on, since, at least conceptually, those two things might have very different "causes" and processes: in one case perhaps about loss of control, and in the other case perhaps issues around the nature of the relationship. Although some things (like sexual shame) might apply to either.

Or to put it in blunt terms: do you ever enjoy masturbating? [feel free to only answer that in foro interno, if you'd prefer!]

If you do ever enjoy masturbating - i.e. sexual stimulation per se is good for you just not in all contexts - then perhaps it would be good to, rather than start with what isn't right for you and wonder why, maybe instead start with what does work, and work from there.

I don't mean necessarily "give up" and stop trying, but start from a context that works for you and then try going step by step from there - both to find exactly where the boundaries are for you, and to maybe push those boundaries through habituation (if you keep doing what's on the edge of comfortable, often you find the edge moves on to something else). If you can enjoy masturbation, you might for instance try masturbating during/after text-sexting, and then while watching "porn" of your boyfriend. Or masturbate in the same room together, but have him ignore that you're there. So, contexts where you might still feel safely detached, but that are more intimate than being completely by yourself. And work in from there. This obviously would require a fairly understanding and open-minded partner, but you say he is, so...
[and while it's possible that Mr Giant Experienced Man-Slab might be frustrated by you being a "quivering heap of insecurity", there's probably at least as good a chance that actually likes being the protecting, nurturing one trying to figure out the intricacies of someone more complex than most guys he meets... and as a Man-Slab, he may well appreciate a boyfriend who wants something more, and gentler, from him than I imagine a lot of the guys who hit on him are looking for...]

If you can't ever even enjoy masturbating, then I guess this doesn't really apply. You might want to think about whether it's a shame/disgust issue, or a fearing-loss-of-control issue, or something less inherently sexual in nature (like a problem remaining focused on, as it were, the task in hand).

Thinking about the processes... you might also want to think about, as it were, which stage of the process is going wrong. Some men have problems with libido and wanting it at all in the first place. Then there's problems, if I can be crude, 'getting it up' - is it really that you get turned off beyond a certain point in the sense of going too far, or could it be just a problem sustaining arousal long enough? Then there's being physically able to sustain arousal, but finding things that are turn-offs so that you never climax. Then there are men who climax without orgasm (we normally think of that as a problem with women, but it can affect men too); and then there are men who have the physical pleasure of orgasm but are psychologically dissatisfied with the experience. So you might want to think about which part of the process is the difficulty for you exactly.

And it may be more than one. You talk about the main problem being that you turn off... but if you never have sexual fantasies, and you don't watch porn, that sounds like you may also have low libido. That might be another aspect of the same problem, or it could be a different problem that makes the main one worse. [and have you tried intentionally having sexual fantasies? and when you say you don't think of men that way, is it purely a psychological lack of sexualisation (you are physically aroused but don't sexually fantasise), or is it a lack of physical arousal too?)]

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Looking at it from another angle: don't forget that there can be many different causes for things, on different levels. Sexual problems can be psychological in nature, or physical, or chemical. A big thing, for instance, is that antidepressants usually cause sexual problems (60% of cases, up to 75% for some SSRIs) - they can produce all three of low libido, anorgasmia, and erectile dysfunction. And of course untreated depression also often has sexual symptoms. Now, I know you say there are deeper psychological causes here than either depression or medication, and that may well be true. But don't assume you can't do anything until you solve The Big Problem. If you have both psychological and neurochemical problems with sex, then dealing with the neurochemical side might, as it were, lighten the burden enough that you can make progress even before fully dealing with the psychological problem. Indeed, making that behavioural progress might go a long way to dealing with the problem (behaviour and thought are closely related, as you know).

The are classes of antidepressant that have no (or minimal) effects on sexuality. There are also drugs that mitigate the side-effects of the antidepressants that do affect sexuality. So I'd suggest that you might want to talk to your doctor about options in that area.

There are also, of course, drugs specifically designed to deal with sexual dysfunction. Again, don't assume that just because you've got a psychological problem it can only be addressed psychologically. There are feedback loops between the psychological and physical-sexual systems. So, you feel "turned off", so your arousal drops, so you become even more turned off. To put it crudely: when you're feeling uncertain about whether you're liking what's happening, you're much more likely to stay psychologically interested if you also happen to have an erection that refuses to go away. Think of it as owning a particularly enthusiastic puppy. Some days, you think you'd like to go for a walk, but you see it's raining, and you're cold, and maybe you'd enjoy it but you just don't feel like making the effort. The more you think like that, the more tired and cold and lazy you end up feeling and you don't go out. But if you have a ridiculously enthusiastic puppy, and every time you head back to the comfy armchair the puppy starts trying to pull you toward the door, then there's a chance you might give in to its demands, go for the walk, and maybe find you actually enjoy it. Likewise with penises. I mean, I'm not saying that a dose of viagra will solve all your problems. But... it might tilt the playing field in the right direction, at least.

[Needless to say, talk anything pharmaceutical over with a doctor, specifically regarding how different drugs might interact]

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You know, if someone said "I'm attracted to women... just not in a sexual way", and said they found themselves always turned off when they tried having sex with women, I'd wonder if they might not just be romantically attracted to women, but sexually attracted to men. I assume you've thoroughly ruled out the vice versa case here?

And speaking of ruling things out, from an empiricist point of view it might be interesting to see how you dealt with a sexual situation with someone you weren't romantically attracted to a who wasn't your perfect partner. Some people have issues specific to romantic partnerships, that might not apply to casual sex with strangers, say. But of course, that's probably an experiment best conducted at a time when you don't have a boyfriend already...



Anyway, really hope I've not been offensive; just thinking out loud about some of the things I might think about if I were in your position.


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*and now we're having a discussion that brings us to the edge of my own issues with expression and conversation... although I'm not sure how much is actually a personal psychological issue, and how much is just being a middle-class Englishman. I'm now worrying whether the expression "come across" is overly sexually suggestive in this context. And, indeed, I'm not totally happy with the word "suggestive", which is rather uncomfortably suggestive in its own right...

[Viktor77]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

[Imralu]

With respect, and hoping I don't come across as intrusive or gratuitous* - and please, do feel free to ignore me if you think the conversation is inappropriate - [...] Anyway, really hope I've not been offensive; just thinking out loud about some of the things I might think about if I were in your position.

No, not offensive at all. Thanks for taking the time to write all of that. It's a help to think clearly about it. I couldn't sleep. I'm feeling OK most of the time, but I kept starting to cry whenever I was going to sleep, so I decided to reply to this ... but now, for the first time, I don't feel brave enough to post it here, so I'm sending it to you as a PM. I hope you don't mind.

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm assuming you mean train strikes? Maybe not the most convenient way, but maybe arrive in Brussels a day early. Go by bus, stay in a hotel for your last night in Belgium. Then you won't miss your flight.

[kodé]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm gone three years and still Viktor is Mr. Firstworldproblems. Never change, ZBB, never change.

[Salmoneus]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm gone three years and still Viktor is Mr. Firstworldproblems. Never change, ZBB, never change.

Bloody hell, has it been that long? I was just thinking, "oh, I haven't seen him around in a while!", but I hadn't realised the while was so protracted... welcome back, anyway.

Imralu: no problems PMing me - won't be able to reply until later, though.

[Viktor77]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm gone three years and still Viktor is Mr. Firstworldproblems. Never change, ZBB, never change.

It's good to know cyberbullying hasn't gone out of fashion in the past 3 years.

Thanks for the advice, Imralu.

[vampireshark]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm assuming you mean train strikes? Maybe not the most convenient way, but maybe arrive in Brussels a day early. Go by bus, stay in a hotel for your last night in Belgium. Then you won't miss your flight.

I'd echo this. Give yourself more than enough time, especially if your flight leaves early in the morning.

And, yep, Imralu, Belgium's been hit by protests with accompanying strikes for at least the past week or so. Similar reasons to the reasons for the French strikes, though in a different form (in France's case, the strikes have mostly hit the gas/fuel supply industry, drying up a lot of gas stations). Actually, there've been a lot of strikes and blockade actions recently in France and Belgium. Last month, in Belgium, it was over the new Viapass toll system they introduced; in France and in Belgium right now, it's over labor reform laws.

[Viktor77]

And, yep, Imralu, Belgium's been hit by protests with accompanying strikes for at least the past week or so. Similar reasons to the reasons for the French strikes, though in a different form (in France's case, the strikes have mostly hit the gas/fuel supply industry, drying up a lot of gas stations). Actually, there've been a lot of strikes and blockade actions recently in France and Belgium. Last month, in Belgium, it was over the new Viapass toll system they introduced; in France and in Belgium right now, it's over labor reform laws.

Yea, you're lucky to be avoiding it in Lux. I think that we might have to get a room at a hotel at the airport, even though I have little motivation to waste even more money, but with a plane leaving at 10AM and uncertainty with the trains (these strikes were not preplanned meaning no one knows til the conductor doesn't show up if a train will leave or not). The problem is then getting there Tuesday evening. I was told Thalys trains are still running and Liège is a stop on the Cologne to Brussels line. But then I'm not even sure on that since the station here has been deserted. And then that goes to Brussels-Central/Midi/North not to Zaventem to the airport and who knows if the Zaventem train is running but there are probably buses or at the worst we can pay a taxi, but that's 40€....

[vampireshark]

Yea, you're lucky to be avoiding it in Lux. I think that we might have to get a room at a hotel at the airport, even though I have little motivation to waste even more money, but with a plane leaving at 10AM and uncertainty with the trains (these strikes were not preplanned meaning no one knows til the conductor doesn't show up if a train will leave or not). The problem is then getting there Tuesday evening. I was told Thalys trains are still running and Liège is a stop on the Cologne to Brussels line. But then I'm not even sure on that since the station here has been deserted. And then that goes to Brussels-Central/Midi/North not to Zaventem to the airport and who knows if the Zaventem train is running but there are probably buses or at the worst we can pay a taxi, but that's 40€....

Since the Thalys is not a SNCB service (from what I remember), this might be viable, but the issue is that the Thalys, from what I understand, is international only (i.e. they don't normally permit domestic travel). And I wouldn't risk it; even if it costs more money, the important thing is making sure you don't miss your flight!

And, speaking of that, I do have my tickets back to the US in late July. The issue, however, is that the flight leaves rather early (11 A.M.) from Frankfurt, which is about 5 hours by bus or train from Luxembourg, so I either have to leave Luxembourg super-early in the morning or spend the night in Frankfurt and make it to the airport the next morning. Still have two months to figure it out, but...

[finlay]

Yeah ... I'm not really repulsed ... or at least that's not the major issue ... but there's some kind of block there that shuts it down.

you obviously aren't happy with this, though, and if you haven't already i think the first thing you must do is be honest with your dude. like, he might think you're rejecting him and you're not... but he needs to understand that explicitly.

good people appreciate honesty

also as a partially similar example i told my boyfriend when i first met him that i hadn't had sex in a few years before coming to japan (between coming to japan and meeting him i'd had sex with a few guys but not many), basically because i hadn't had that many good experiences in the past with sex, and he was very cautious when first "going for it", although my situation is nothing like yours. emotionally i was more guarded and it took me a couple of years to admit my feelings and him just as long to realize why i was so reluctant.

[Travis B.]

I'm starting to freak out that the strikes which are going until at least May 31st will still be going on the 1st when we have to take a plane to the US from Brussels airport. We have to get there from Liège with lots of luggage and I just don't know what to do...

I'm gone three years and still Viktor is Mr. Firstworldproblems. Never change, ZBB, never change.

I would not classify this as a mere "firstworldproblem" myself. It might not be as big as some of our problems, but it is definitely a real problem by any means. And yes, this is Viktor, but that does not mean that this is not a real concern just because it is his problem.

[jal]

I would not classify this as a mere "firstworldproblem" myself. It might not be as big as some of our problems, but it is definitely a real problem by any means. And yes, this is Viktor, but that does not mean that this is not a real concern just because it is his problem.

Also, we have established more than once recently (in an informal way) that it is fine here to vent about anything you like, and the only acceptable reactions are those of empathy or constructive criticism*. I don't recall kodé, but I do think his reaction is inappropriate, and really, worrying about missing your plane from Europe to the US is not a typical or even good example of a "first-world problem".


JAL

*At least since the banning of what's-his-name who scolded people here non-stop.

[vampireshark]

...soooooo now they're announcing a train strike in France. And I'm supposed to go on holiday in France this weekend. How lovely.

[jal]

I'm so glad I have a car :).


JAL

[vampireshark]

I'm so glad I have a car :).


JAL

I don't think a car would help me in this case, especially because there's also an oil refinery strike in France at the same time. A lot of fuel stations have run dry.

Plus, finding a car I can drive can be a bit tricky...