The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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Vijay
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Vijay »

Salmoneus wrote:You cannot point out any particular flaw in what I've said
On the contrary, I can point to so many flaws in what you've said that I'm astounded that you even felt the need to say it in the first place. I just don't want to, and I don't have to. It's not my responsibility to educate you; it's yours to educate yourself. I personally have better things to do in my life than argue with some random white racist online.
It is frustrating to spend time trying to have a rational discussion, only to discover the other person has no interest in good-faith debate, but only in mockery, trolling and belittlement to make themselves look better.
Oh, look how sorry I am that you feel frustrated while I feel genuinely hurt. I feel hurt that you think nothing of lecturing me about my history, about the country that colonized my ancestors' homeland, about the people who thought nothing of directly hurting my family, about things that affect every day of my existence whether I like it or not. I mean, what did we ever do to you that was so bad that we deserved all this hatred on your part? Did we invade and colonize your country? Did we tax your fellow citizens, limit their job opportunities, control their political reforms, rape their women, steal their money outright, vandalize their property, ruin their economy? Because your country and/or its people did every single one of these things and more to us.

No one asked you to "try to have a rational discussion" here. You're the one who decided to discuss something, at length. Stop it.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Complaining about "whitesplaining", "mansplaining", etc. discredits one in my eyes at least, as one's race, gender, etc. does not make what one says any more or less valid. Usually doing so is simply dressing racism, sexism, etc. up as progressivism. (And yes, non-white people can certainly be racist, just as women can certainly be sexist.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by linguoboy »

Locking this thread for a 24-hour cooling off period.

ETA: Yes, Sal, this means you, too. Saving a post for later posting is a thing.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

In the interests of not undermining the authority of moderation, I'm not going to argue with you here. But please see the detailed comments I have made in the private forum.
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by zompist »

Just dealing with Kipling, rather than the interpersonal stuff...
Salmoneus wrote:It's worth noting that what it's fashionable to call "racism" in Kipling is exactly the same as what is called "liberalism" and "progressivism" in foreign policy today. Western do-gooders still preach the White Man's Burden
It's fine to put a problematic writer into historical context— but you have to actually do it. Kipling was not liberal and progressive for his time; he was a conservative, s gung-ho nationalist and imperialist, and progressives of his day despised him.

George Orwell's 1942 essay on Kipling recognizes both his virtues and his faults:
Orwell wrote:Although he had no direct connexion with any political party, Kipling was a Conservative, a thing that does not exist nowadays. Those who now call themselves Conservatives are either Liberals, Fascists or the accomplices of Fascists. He identified himself with the ruling power and not with the opposition. In a gifted writer this seems to us strange and even disgusting, but it did have the advantage of giving Kipling a certain grip on reality. The ruling power is always faced with the question, ‘In such and such circumstances, what would you do?’, whereas the opposition is not obliged to take responsibility or make any real decisions. Where it is a permanent and pensioned opposition, as in England, the quality of its thought deteriorates accordingly. Moreover, anyone who starts out with a pessimistic, reactionary view of life tends to be justified by events, for Utopia never arrives and ‘the gods of the copybook headings’, as Kipling himself put it, always return. Kipling sold out to the British governing class, not financially but emotionally. This warped his political judgement, for the British ruling class were not what he imagined, and it led him into abysses of folly and snobbery, but he gained a corresponding advantage from having at least tried to imagine what action and responsibility are like.
I actually agree that Kipling was not a racist, in the sense of despising people for their inherent nature— this is clear from Kim where he is explicitly scornful of Westerners who disdain Indians or Indian civilization.

But he was an imperialist, and it's not very useful to confuse imperialism with attempts to end injustice worldwide. He believed in British rule over as much of the globe as possible. This too comes up in Kim, most explicitly in the section where the revolution of 1857 is described as "madness", more subtly in the careful construction of the plot and situation such that Indians simply never come into conflict with British rule, and cheerfully work to support it.

Read some of his comments about Ireland quoted in his Wikipedia article to get a taste of his anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiments.

Of course, to live with himself, Kipling had to believe that imperial rule was benign and that self-rule (whether by Irish or Indians) would be savage and backward. This doesn't mean he was a secret liberal; it means that imperialists deluded themselves about the moral nature of their practices.

(And about their practical efficiency. As Orwell points out, the British colonialists were very good about building railways. Somehow they convinced themselves that Indians were not able to build railways themselves... though the Japanese managed it just fine. Of course, the apologists didn't talk much about the fact that the locomotives weren't even built in India, but imported from the UK...)

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by rotting bones »

1. I think what we are dealing with in Kipling are distinct definitions of what it means to be a racist. Whenever in doubt, multiply entities as necessary:

a) If, in order to qualify as a racist, you just have to believe that nonwhites (and some whites) should be ruled by some (other) whites for their own good, then Kipling was a racist. b) If, in order to qualify as a racist, you just have to unironically use racial language, then Kipling was a racist. c) If, in order to qualify as a racist, you just have to believe that whites are inherently superior to nonwhites, then Kipling was not a racist.

d) If, in order to qualify as a racist, you just have to believe that some white civilizations have been superior to some nonwhite civilizations by universally reasonable standards at some points in time, then Kipling was a racist. But if that is your definition of racism, then I am a racist too.

So the question is, which of these things are actually bad? (a) is definitely wrong, and Kipling was a racist in that sense. (d) is definitely not wrong unless the belief crosses the lines of accuracy, but then what is wrong is the inaccuracy, not the aspect under consideration. (b) and (c) are more contextual. I know too little about Kipling to comment on his entire corpus.

2. Sal is saying that the relationship between liberals and conservatives such as Kipling goes like this: 1) Similarities: They believe in the same ends of opposing needless cruelty and injustice. 2) Differences: They believe that different means lead to the same ends. Conservatives think giving more power to the presently entrenched ruling classes will lead to lessening needless cruelty and injustice more effectively than liberal policies will.

Based on his previous posts, I think Sal would argue that the historical record has proved conservatives empirically wrong on this point. However, this does not change the fact that liberals and orthodox conservatives (not protofacist "conservatives", etc.) share the same "checkmating" conditions even if they differ as to the specific strategies which they believe will lead to those end goals.

Compare this situation with many fascists who favor justice-like mechanisms only insofar as these promote their distinctly non-justice-like ends. Or communists who extrapolate a few historically insignificant correlations beyond their warranted limits, and try to be on the "right side of history" without worrying "idealistically" about socially relative notions like justice. These are unmitigated evil and functional lunacy respectively from the liberal point of view.

3. Personally, I think neither Sal nor Vijay are racists. (The third person thing is not intended to be a put down of any kind. English is not my first language.)

Vijay is unfortunately a typical online feminist. They talk about wanting a nicer society, but when presented with arguments, they often try to shut down discussion in the least nice manner imaginable. I don't want to live in a society like that. Even if you don't share my value of social rationality, I can offer some arguments to anyone who values universal justice:

I don't think enough humans are emotionally egalitarian to create a primarily emotional society that is also safe. Too many people have tribally prejudiced emotional natures. If you create a society where emotion takes priority over reason, then too many people will unleash their emotionally authentic tribal bigotry, trapping the majority in a state of terror. The quality that draws enough people to egalitarian justice is reason, not emotion. It is by showing them data that we can persuade enough people to create a functionally just society, not by screaming at them enough. But in order to do that, you must have a society that values reason over emotion to begin with.

That said, I think individuals should be free to be rational or not in a given situation as they choose, but they should not impose their preferences on others. I have no issue with Vijay's determination not to engage Sal in rational discussion, but this part bothers me: 'No one asked you to "try to have a rational discussion" here. You're the one who decided to discuss something, at length. Stop it.' I have no right to force Vijay to be more rational than he wants to be, but what gives him the right to decide whether or not we can try to have a rational discussion?

I'm not on Sal's side here either. He's an unpleasant person who is needlessly confrontational and gets provoked at the drop of a hat. I don't know whether this is a bad Irish stereotype that he's deliberately cultivated as an online persona or whether he's genuinely emotionally disturbed. Although the former is possible, I suspect it's the latter.
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by zompist »

Comments on just a couple of bits--
rotting bones wrote:Sal is saying that the relationship between liberals and conservatives such as Kipling goes like this: 1) Similarities: They believe in the same ends of opposing needless cruelty and injustice.
Who believes in needless cruelty? The difference is in what cruelties are considered needful or not. E.g. Kipling supported Gen. Dyer, the man who ordered the Amritsar massacre, as "the man who saved India".
The quality that draws enough people to egalitarian justice is reason, not emotion. It is by showing them data that we can persuade enough people to create a functionally just society, not by screaming at them enough. But in order to do that, you must have a society that values reason over emotion to begin with.
I think you're empirically wrong about this! You have an irrational prejudice against emotion. I don't think many people are reasoned into a sense of empathy or justice. But many come to it by compelling stories (historical or not), with all the emotions they provoke.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Salmoneus did not deny that Kipling was an imperialist; he just stated that Kipling was not a racist, it should be noted.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by linguoboy »

Travis B. wrote:Salmoneus did not deny that Kipling was an imperialist; he just stated that Kipling was not a racist, it should be noted.
This seems to me like the old "intent vs impact" argument in slightly different clothes.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:Salmoneus did not deny that Kipling was an imperialist; he just stated that Kipling was not a racist, it should be noted.
This seems to me like the old "intent vs impact" argument in slightly different clothes.
In essence you are getting into whether racism and racial prejudice are synonymous or not, in that it can be argued that while Kipling was not prejudiced against Indians, he did support imperialist policies that did negatively impact Indians in the end, even if that may have not been his intent.

The thing is that from all appearances, most people treat the terms racism and racial prejudice as being synonymous, and when people try to treat them as not synonymous it is usually to intentionally paint entire systems and societies rather than individuals as racist, for better or for worse.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Pro: The quetiapine is working very well, fast, much faster than any antidepressant.

Con: It appeared that it wore off before I went to sleep, resulting in my crashing quite hard.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by vampireshark »

I decided to take the day off (have a few vacation days that need to be used up before the end of the year, plus Tuesday's a holiday), which was great: decided to go to Arlon to explore, which was quite a charming little city. Not going to work, however, felt really strange, and I felt a bit guilty about not doing so...
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Vijay »

I have a co-worker who does pretty much the exact same work I do. I suspect she isn't doing her fair share, but I'm also kind of enjoying doing what she didn't.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by linguoboy »

Cubs win the World Series.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

I really, really hope this quetiapine (now at 100 mg) will work. And it seems it might. However, the higher my dosage the more I hallucinate. But I am so hoping that it works that I am willing to put up with hallucinating at this point.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by linguoboy »

So my husband has made the decision to entre hospice care. We haven't fixed the details, but this will probably happen before the end of next week. I don't know if this will lead to me spending less or more time here, since I will probably take off work to care for him and that could mean a lot of downtime at home.

On the one hand, it's a tremendous relief, since his been miserable a long time. Now at least there's a definitive end to his suffering in sight. (My mother, an RN, estimates he'll last maybe three to four weeks.) On the other hand, I still can't really wrap my head around what it will be like to live without him. I told him the other day that--whatever else happens to me--my life will always be split into three periods: before I met him, the time we were together, and the time after his death.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

That such is necessary really sucks.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Damn linguoboy, that's rough. It sucks when what's "best" is still pretty bad. I hope you can take care and enjoy what time you have left.
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Vijay »

I'm very sorry to hear that, linguoboy. I don't know what else to say.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by hwhatting »

I'm sorry to hear that, too.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

LB, I'm so sorry.
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by vampireshark »

It is sad to hear that, LB; I hope the both of you are able to enjoy the time you have, though.


In minor contradictory feelings, while I am excited for my trip back home (to the US) in about three weeks, several things about it are making me feel uneasy. One being the political climate, especially in my "home" state. The other being that I probably should see/visit my father while I'm back home (long story short: my parents separated about a year and a half ago; I still consider "home" with my mother, though), but my twin brother has not told my father that he's in NC... and brother's been in NC since about mid-August. While I'm not inclined to tell my father what's really going on with him, as that's my brother's business to tell, if he continues the pattern of ignoring/avoiding our dad, that's not going to be an easy issue to traipse around.

(Truth be told, any dealings involving third parties and my brother have been more than a bit awkward as of late, but that's perhaps a separate issue.)
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by linguoboy »

vampireshark wrote:It is sad to hear that, LB; I hope the both of you are able to enjoy the time you have, though.
You learn to treasure the small things. Getting him to crack a smile is enough to totally make my day.

When I heard his sister and his niece were coming into town to see him, I was relieved. I wasn't sure they'd come through. I was so relieved, in fact, I offered them beds in our house so they wouldn't have to pay for a hotel. Today I found out that they plan to stay an entire week. That's more time than we've spent around each other in our entire lives. Maybe it will be a comfort to him to have them here, but maybe not, and even if they turn out to be very helpful, having near strangers underfoot is going to significantly raise my stress level.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Welp. This happened again. Liz disappeared off the face of the earth, and I come to the conclusion that she probably is sick of dealing with me... for her to only resume contact weeks later as if nothing had happened, having cut contact before for entirely innocuous reasons, leaving me feeling horrible for thinking that she had been sick of dealing with me. Of course, last time that she would have gotten sick with me would have been understandable - I was ideating a lot at the time (and she had stopped talking with me for a while for similar reasons years back) - even though what really happened is she got really sick. This time such thoughts on my part made no sense - I was not even really depressed at the time (even though I was pretty paranoid) - when in reality she just gotten extremely busy. We got in a really long conversation a couple days back after having not talked or at most very infrequently texted for like at least a month, which I am very happy about, but now I feel kinda bad about all this.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Travis B. »

The new dosage of quetiapine, 200 mg, is doing something. The paranoia is, well, changing - but I am not sure if it is changing for better or for worse. I have largely stopped getting the obviously delusional sort of paranoia. Instead, I have started getting a more realistic paranoia - it feels like things one could actually see oneself thinking rationally, even if in reality it is entirely irrational. The problem is now I am having a hard time telling whether I am being paranoid of not, whereas before I knew I was being paranoid so I could ignore such thoughts easily, and this almost makes things worse.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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