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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:32 pm 
Sanno
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I just wanted to point a few things out for clarity:
rotting bones wrote:
There are two branches of political philosophy in the West

No, there aren't.1
Quote:
: Roman republicanism and English liberalism.

If there were two branches, those wouldn't be the ones anyone would pick as the two. 2
Liberalism says that citizens ought to minimize the role of politics in their lives and quietly do their own thing. This will add up to progress over the centuries. [/quote]
This is not what liberalism says. 3
Quote:
Republicanism says the greatest actions are political, like they were in Ancient Rome.

This is not what republicanism says.4
Quote:
Personally, I don't see why these two accounts have to be mutually exclusive.

Because they prioritise different things, and hence will give different answers in cases where the priorities clash.

As a more general point, and please don't take this the wrong way: I don't know whether it's a symptom or a cause of your difficulties, or what diagnoses you may have had, but in case you're not aware of it at the moment, I feel someone should point out that this habit of responding to everything - whether your own conbiology post or someone else questioning the potential meaninglessness of existence - with a political-ideological lecture on a topic that has no apparent relevence to the matter at hand (whether or not it is accurate) is not healthy behaviour. I really don't mean to sound aggressive, I'm just genuinely and increasingly concerned. As you know, we've never seen eye to eye, but you seem to have drifted from "reasoned contributions to the topic with obvious flaws" to "what the hell?" non sequiturs - you often sound almost manic now. Are you remembering to sleep properly?


[spoiler footnotes for those interested:
More: show
1. Leaving aside that "branch" suggests more a field than a school to me, there are lots of different schools of thought in Western political philosophy. These include classical liberalism, liberal egalitarianism, socialism, social egalitarianism, conservativism, and rights-based approaches.
2. Republicanism is generally considered a subspecies of liberalism, for one thing. If I had to split western political philosophy in two, I think the logical places to do so would probably be either perfectionism vs non-perfectionism or, very slightly different, positive vs negative liberty. Or, different slightly again, liberty-focused vs non-liberty-focused. Or, from a different angle, contractarian vs 'absolute' theories?
3. Liberalism is not about individuals staying out of politics, but about politics staying away from individuals. Liberalism is defined by a commitment to personal liberty, but specifically by its non-perfectionism: the belief that the State should be neutral with respect to competing theories of the good life, except to the extent of protecting the ability of its citizens to independently seek the good life for themselves.
4. This is a bit trickier. "Classical Republicanism" is a theoretical historical concept that has been interpreted in various ways. The way you're probably talking about (it was Arendt's view) is now considered less historically accurate, and so is often termed "civic humanism" to disambiguate. Civic humanism doesn't exactly say that "the greatest actions are political", but it says that participation in government is inherently rewarding, that the virtues that enable this are inherently valuable, and that government itself (as a vehicle for the more complete realisation of individuals and communities) is inherently valuable; furthermore, it is a perfectionist ideology, in that it believes the government should promote such inherently valuable things as government, and the virtues required to partake in government. This civic humanism is broadly speaking a species of communitarianism, and in the modern political debate would typically be seen as right-wing or conservative.
These days, classical Republicanism is instead seen as more accurately continued in what's called "civic republicanism", which shares many results with civic humanism, but for different reasons. Civic republicanism is, we might say, the strain of liberalism closest to socialism and social democracy (and libertarianism): in that, while it is non-perfectionist and prioritises liberty, it conceives of liberty in terms of structural relations. Specifically, it seeks to minimise 'domination', the relation in which one individual is at the mercy of the arbitrary rule of another. Civic republicans may be found among those called "progressives", "conservatives", "liberals" or "libertarians", depending on the details of their flavour.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:27 pm 
Smeric
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Salmoneus wrote:
As a more general point, and please don't take this the wrong way: I don't know whether it's a symptom or a cause of your difficulties, or what diagnoses you may have had, but in case you're not aware of it at the moment, I feel someone should point out that this habit of responding to everything - whether your own conbiology post or someone else questioning the potential meaninglessness of existence - with a political-ideological lecture on a topic that has no apparent relevence to the matter at hand (whether or not it is accurate) is not healthy behaviour. I really don't mean to sound aggressive, I'm just genuinely and increasingly concerned. As you know, we've never seen eye to eye, but you seem to have drifted from "reasoned contributions to the topic with obvious flaws" to "what the hell?" non sequiturs - you often sound almost manic now. Are you remembering to sleep properly?

Well, obviously I think everything I say is relevant. In this case, I am defending my advice that Nort should engage in politics more fully. Any flaws you can find in my conbiology will be helpful.

The ZBB seems to be the only place where people think I have a mental disorder. I don't know what to think. The fact that a lot of ZBBers have mental disorders does nothing to raise my confidence in that diagnosis. I think the root of the problem is that I have been badly educated, and I don't know how to communicate well. Being ignorant and a bad speaker is not considered a mental disorder outside Oxford.

Salmoneus wrote:
1. Leaving aside that "branch" suggests more a field than a school to me, there are lots of different schools of thought in Western political philosophy. These include classical liberalism, liberal egalitarianism, socialism, social egalitarianism, conservativism, and rights-based approaches.

This is more of an language thing than a meaning thing. Suppose someone were to say, "I didn't know crows cawed as deeply as that," and I were to respond, "There are two kinds of birds called ravens and crows. Ravens have a deeper call than crows do." In this situation, I do not think it would be appropriate to interpret the response as saying, "There are literally two species of birds in existence, namely ravens and crows." or, "Since the beginning of time, literally two things have existed, ravens and crows. Both are birds."

Salmoneus wrote:
2. Republicanism is generally considered a subspecies of liberalism, for one thing. If I had to split western political philosophy in two, I think the logical places to do so would probably be either perfectionism vs non-perfectionism or, very slightly different, positive vs negative liberty. Or, different slightly again, liberty-focused vs non-liberty-focused. Or, from a different angle, contractarian vs 'absolute' theories?

I don't know what you are trying to do, I am not trying to teach political philosophy as a subject. I'm defending my view that Nort should get into politics. Your analysis ignores the context of what I'm saying.

Salmoneus wrote:
3. Liberalism is not about individuals staying out of politics, but about politics staying away from individuals. Liberalism is defined by a commitment to personal liberty, but specifically by its non-perfectionism: the belief that the State should be neutral with respect to competing theories of the good life, except to the extent of protecting the ability of its citizens to independently seek the good life for themselves.

What I said is not something liberalism directly tells people to do, but I would argue that it follows from what liberalism tells people to do. There are academics who agree with me.

Salmoneus wrote:
4. This is a bit trickier. "Classical Republicanism" is a theoretical historical concept that has been interpreted in various ways. The way you're probably talking about (it was Arendt's view) is now considered less historically accurate, and so is often termed "civic humanism" to disambiguate. Civic humanism doesn't exactly say that "the greatest actions are political", but it says that participation in government is inherently rewarding, that the virtues that enable this are inherently valuable, and that government itself (as a vehicle for the more complete realisation of individuals and communities) is inherently valuable; furthermore, it is a perfectionist ideology, in that it believes the government should promote such inherently valuable things as government, and the virtues required to partake in government. This civic humanism is broadly speaking a species of communitarianism, and in the modern political debate would typically be seen as right-wing or conservative.
These days, classical Republicanism is instead seen as more accurately continued in what's called "civic republicanism", which shares many results with civic humanism, but for different reasons. Civic republicanism is, we might say, the strain of liberalism closest to socialism and social democracy (and libertarianism): in that, while it is non-perfectionist and prioritises liberty, it conceives of liberty in terms of structural relations. Specifically, it seeks to minimise 'domination', the relation in which one individual is at the mercy of the arbitrary rule of another. Civic republicans may be found among those called "progressives", "conservatives", "liberals" or "libertarians", depending on the details of their flavour.

I don't understand the difference. By "greatest actions are political", I don't mean that political participation is literally more important than breathing. That example is necessarily strained because I don't understand what you interpreted me as saying. I would point out things like, "Nort is not a traditional conservative." or ask questions like, "Have you read Hannah Arendt?" to pinpoint the source of the confusion, but I have zero faith that any of it will do any good.

By the way, practically everything I said comes from primary sources and mainstream academic secondary sources.

PS. In case it wasn't clear from the above, my position is that "the greatest actions are political" is a fairly accurate synopsis of Arendt's political theory. I mean, that is literally what she says, with common sense caveats. At the same time, her theory is also compatible with Sal's point 4. (parts of it anyway) I gathered this from reading her books myself.

PPS. Also, it is my opinion that liberalism versus republicanism is a dichotomy that is very much in use in mainstream academic political philosophy, and that this dichotomy more or less follows the path outlined in my previous posts. I know this because I read SEP articles in my spare time. It is possible to quibble with my specific interpretation, but accusing me of manic raving amounts to gaslighting. This article discusses "liberalism versus republicanism" in the context of citizenship: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/citi ... tiRepuLibe (Of course, liberalism and republicanism, being traditions, have internal diversity, but that is irrelevant to my point IMHO.)

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Last edited by rotting bones on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:29 am, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:33 pm 
Smeric
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But sincere thanks for worrying about me. Also, hugs for everyone in this thread who is hurting.

Because I'm dense, it habitually slips my mind that these things don't go without saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:53 pm 
Smeric
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rotting bones wrote:
Because I'm dense, it habitually slips my mind that these things don't go without saying.
Same with me. Also, I couldn't find the words for a lot of these things, which is why I avoided this thread for most of the time I've been a member (which hasn't been long)

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:14 pm 
Smeric
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mèþru wrote:
rotting bones wrote:
Because I'm dense, it habitually slips my mind that these things don't go without saying.
Also, I couldn't find the words for a lot of these things, which is why I avoided this thread for most of the time I've been a member (which hasn't been long)

Me too. We had no culture of consolation in the household I grew up in. We had a culture of cheering people up by distracting them with happy news.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 am 
Sumerul
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^ What the hell happened in here?

Just popping by to offer virtual hugs to everyone and say that I'm stressed out about rental and employment things. My meds seem to be holding me together - no crying, no sadness except for Monday this week - and I know that I would have been a mess in this stress at another time. I've noticed my behaviour becoming that of a depressed person again though - shutting myself away and avoiding contact, eating shit, I've stopped cooking etc. I think I'll contact my former counsellor soon and ask for recommendations for therapists... but I'm just waiting for the current causes of stress to settle down because I want relative stability before I get into therapy.

On Monday I was really sad about being alone and, let's just say, difficult to love (more than platonically ... I'm perpetually surprised, but people seem to like me). I guess it'd be the worst time to add boy issues to the mix, but I kind of want to set up an online dating profile just like "Tall, neurotic, red-bearded guy seeking some kind of occasional closeness and semi-sexual intimacy - without sex" and then feel like an arsehole for not being at all attracted to / feeling intensely uncomfortable with the idea of being around the vast majority of people who respond.

Agh, time to get in the shower and get ready for the job where I don't feel like I know what I'm doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:13 am 
Smeric
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*hug* this is going to be like 99% of my posts in this thread now, isn't it


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:49 am 
Sumerul
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My pharmacist has, up until tonight, been great. Tonight, however, she discovered that I did not know the word 償還払い ("reimbursement"). This prompted her to tell another pharmacist "of course, she's a foreigner so she doesn't understand Japanese," look up and write down the English words for the symptoms each medication is for (on packages that already give that information in Japanese), and oh-so-helpfully count the medications in English ("ワン、ツー、スリー、フォア)..

The Rising Wasabi is fucking prophetic.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:21 pm 
Sumerul
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Risla wrote:
償還払い ("reimbursement")

I wouldn't know what that means even in English.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 am 
Smeric
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Pole, the wrote:
Risla wrote:
償還払い ("reimbursement")

I wouldn't know what that means even in English.


It's when you have to pay yourself sick from your own money for something you should be getting for free and wait for up to a year to have that covered.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:37 am 
Sumerul
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From Wiktionary:
Quote:
reimburse: To compensate with payment; especially, to repay money spent on one's behalf.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:10 am 
Smeric
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Risla wrote:
My pharmacist has, up until tonight, been great. Tonight, however, she discovered that I did not know the word 償還払い ("reimbursement"). This prompted her to tell another pharmacist "of course, she's a foreigner so she doesn't understand Japanese," look up and write down the English words for the symptoms each medication is for (on packages that already give that information in Japanese), and oh-so-helpfully count the medications in English ("ワン、ツー、スリー、フォア)..

The Rising Wasabi is fucking prophetic.

I can kind of relate to this. When I was growing up, every time I failed to understand something my parents were saying in Malayalam, usually because I wasn't paying attention or just didn't hear them, they'd immediately switch to English.
Pole, the wrote:
Risla wrote:
償還払い ("reimbursement")

I wouldn't know what that means even in English.

Zwrot.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am 
Osän
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Risla wrote:
My pharmacist has, up until tonight, been great. Tonight, however, she discovered that I did not know the word 償還払い ("reimbursement"). This prompted her to tell another pharmacist "of course, she's a foreigner so she doesn't understand Japanese," look up and write down the English words for the symptoms each medication is for (on packages that already give that information in Japanese), and oh-so-helpfully count the medications in English ("ワン、ツー、スリー、フォア)..

The Rising Wasabi is fucking prophetic.

haven't had that experience in a while. but i'm kind of at the stage of learning where i can talk their ear off instead. mind you, i found a pharmacist near my work who spoke near-enough perfect english, but unfortunately i stopped going there because the doctor they're technically-not-attached-to-hush-hush (you know how it is, they have to technically be separate but realistically speaking they're owned by the same folks usually) was a royal douche. anyway i usually go to a random assortment of pharmacies that are just the nearest ones to the various doctors i frequent. i should probably consolidate and get all my meds from one place, but meh.

oh yeah also it reminded me of a story i have where i went to yamada denki and i was served by three different people because as soon as they used a word i couldn't understand they'd run off to find someone else until they could find someone whose eigo was good enough (realistically, as good as my nihongo). i was only trying to ask if they have a product or not, and i'd say like "do you have this?" and they'd be like "well, we don't have it in stock", and i was too tired and grumpy to work out what "zaiko" meant, and i'd just repeat like "...so, do you have it or not?" and they'd just repeat themselves rather than saying "no". they were all about 19 and pretty fucking useless employees anyway by the looks of things. no initiative or problem-solving skills, but that's japanese customer service for you.

but for every negative story i have of japanese making weird assumptions about foreigners, i also have a negative experience of watching foreigners reinforcing those stereotypes. like the middle-aged gaunt-looking british expat who blithely goes up to a young girl and says loudly in English "Excuse me! Do you have (__)?" where (__) was something pretty complicated, and getting annoyed when the girl pointed at something different. The girl didn't say a single word throughout the whole interaction, it was clear she was uncomfortable. Like i'll maintain that it's ok not to know how to speak a language, as long as you can be bothered to learn your excuse mes and thank yous and at least give it a try to explain something simply if the other person doesn't really speak english, which a lot of british and american tourists don't bother to do. hell i went to korea and i at least bothered to learn and use my five words' worth of broken korean, and frantic gestures, instead of trying to speak english with them. But their english was better than the japanese frankly (also, the koreans that couldn't speak a single word of english were usually willing to help out - viz. the woman in the subway who guided me to the "ellibeteo" when she saw me trying to drag my big suitcase onto an escalator. took me a minute to parse the hangul into "elevator")


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:16 am 
Sumerul
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I'm at a frustrating state where my listening is far better than my speaking, which in turn is way better than my reaction time. I understand every stupid little comment people make about me, but responding is hard and I come up with retorts about 20 seconds too late. Like a couple months ago, I was on the train, and this one young woman turned to her friend and said "I don't want to sit by the foreigner." (no seriously) and only AFTER they moved elsewhere was I like "yeah I should have been like 外人怖いんやな~." Infuriating, it's like constant intense staircase wit. I end up doing a lot of glaring. Alas, my receptive skills keep improving much faster than my productive skills (not just listening; I'm probably a solid N4 speaking, but I know about 800 kanji), so the gap ever widens...

I definitely get what you mean about people confirming stereotypes. Drives me 100% crazy. Like about 40% of my drive to learn Japanese is "I do not want to confirm stereotypes" (it's a dumb pride thing) but then I just watch other people do it for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:35 am 
Osän
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Have it ready next time, like just respond with ひどーいな or something

The staircase wit thing reminds me of this morning - I was woken up by a woman at my door selling stuff (at 10:something, so I probably should have been up anyway lol), and she'd already launched into her spiel for about 20 seconds before catching herself to ask if I understood Japanese. I hadn't said anything yet because I had just woken up barely 30 seconds ago and was bleary-eyed and trying to work out if she was from NHK or the post office, which she wasn't. I was just like "yeah i understand but I'm not interested".. lol

I still can't think of my level in terms of the JLPT really. I prefer to say I'm a solid B1, and B2 when I'm drunk, using the European scale. I've passed N3 in the JLPT, but a few years ago. But there's no speaking test, and it's multiple choice. It's like TOEIC, it's not actually useful for judging your working level of Japanese. I think my speaking and kanji might be N2, but my vocabulary is atrocious, so I definitely wouldn't pass N2 right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:22 pm 
Šriftom
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The being ignored thing from the other thread...

I absolutely hate it too and lately I'm being ignored so much it's driving me bonkers. I was so annoyed by one person ignoring me I bombarded him with text msgs, called him 3-4 times in the space of half an hour and then messaged him on FB, obviously that's not a winning strategy (I've never done anything similar before, quite the opposite, for example I missed the chance to meet a friend when I travelled to his country because I didn't get a reply to my one SMS) but I got no reaction, at the very least the idiot could have blocked me on FB!

Earlier this month I was shocked to learn they're closing down my favourite radio station, since discovering it some years ago it's all I've ever listened to, I emailed them to ask them how long the website will stay, they have a lot of shows you could listen to and download, I didn't get a reply for about a week and the other day I saw the site is already down, I messaged them on FB this time (desperately wanting to hear the improbable i.e. the site will be back) and I saw they saw my message but guess what? No answer.

Then there's that other person who for some odd reason doesn't have his own phone and in the past 20 days I've called his father about half a dozen times but he doesn't seem to care to return the call. There are also other minor instances of being ignored and it all just adds up.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:13 am 
Smeric
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A relatively minor thing; I've just set up the online banking I need in order to get my Student account working with Santander. Thing is though I already have another account which we'd set up in May for the purposes of the Student Loans application, but when we'd come to convert in in August when I actually turned 18 and was thereby eligible for a student account it turned out it had become dormant so we couldn't do shit with it. So I already had the account details and card for this account which wasn't my student account (and we'll therefore have to inform the SLC of the change at some point), and it turns out I prefer the PIN for the old account. Now the lady in branch had implied that I could somehow make it so I had the same PIN on both cards, so when I set it up the first thing I did was look for somewhere on the account page that would let me do that. Only thing is I think I've now requested a completely new PIN for my student account, and there seems to be no sign of this "shared PIN" functionality anywhere. :?

Banking is so damn tricky.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:54 am 
Sumerul
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@Io: We don't ignore you. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:18 am 
Sanno
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I do.

Ugh. I have to hire a new student assistant at work and I just don't give a fuck. I should have been doing interviews last week but I couldn't get the clunky-ass hiring software to work. Then I missed two days because a houseguest was in the hospital. And last night I realised I've got a two-and-a-half day training from Monday to Wednesday so I won't be able to schedule any interviews then.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:07 pm 
Sumerul
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Io wrote:
(I've never done anything similar before, quite the opposite, for example I missed the chance to meet a friend when I travelled to his country because I didn't get a reply to my one SMS)

Was that me? I was in a depression hole when you were here. I failed to meet Viktor77 too for the same reason. I've done it a lot to people who are in Berlin for one day. What ends up happening is I don't feel able to go out so I spend the whole day inside feeling like a horrible person. I really hope you weren't offended.

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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:37 pm 
Šriftom
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lol, no, I don't have your number to send you an SMS in first place. It's alright we can meet next time, I quite like Berlin so I'll be back, we can pet lemurs together 8)

hwhatting/linguoboy, thanks :D


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:31 pm 
Smeric
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linguoboy wrote:
I have to hire a new student assistant at work

So tempting!


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:25 am 
Smeric
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fever

perfect

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In reality, our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, which indeed is a divine gift. - Socrates


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:38 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul
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Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:02 pm
Posts: 2933
Location: Luxembourg
Yay for high-ish stress week!
– Thesis advisory committee meeting on Wednesday of next week, which is quite stressful to prepare for especially considering what happened last time.
– Lots of work drama, with a lot of bubbling and fermenting tension between coworkers.
– One of my back up hard drive's connectors broke, so now I need to find a way/person to fix it.
– As expected, my mother just received a notice to respond/civil summons for divorce proceedings.

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What do you see in the night?

In search of victims subjects to appear on banknotes. Inquire within.


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 Post subject: Re: Venting thread
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:27 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:35 pm
Posts: 119
Location: 0xF745
I am deeply angry about the fact that even if I make it to Seattle now, it will ring hollow given my current age. I will have wasted my entire youth, the best years of my life, in a place I hate with no opportunity to enjoy life as well as others.


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