Restrictive use of IPA...

Discussions worth keeping around later.
User avatar
Gaxa
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Post by Gaxa »

*switch*

yay no more boxes

User avatar
Aurora Rossa
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1138
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:46 am
Location: The vendée of America
Contact:

Post by Aurora Rossa »

I always avoided it because it's so much work to type. I have to get Character Map and individually paste each character into the post. X-SAMPA allows me to indicate any phoneme without having to paste obscure characters or even use alt-codes (though I have no difficulty with those). And as others have said, it doesn't always work, and in that case renders whatever you put unreadable.
Image
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Post by Travis B. »

Eddy wrote:I always avoided it because it's so much work to type. I have to get Character Map and individually paste each character into the post. X-SAMPA allows me to indicate any phoneme without having to paste obscure characters or even use alt-codes (though I have no difficulty with those). And as others have said, it doesn't always work, and in that case renders whatever you put unreadable.
You really ought to use an X-SAMPA or CXS to IPA converter, such as the one I usually use.

User avatar
WurdBendur
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:00 am
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Post by WurdBendur »

There are occasions when I just want to write down some phonetic notation quickly and easily, and for that I may use X-SAMPA. Otherwise for my own notes, at least for things I've settled on and polished, I use exclusively IPA. I still use X-SAMPA on the board for compatibility, though. Aside from the board having issues with Unicode, some users also may not be able to use it reliably.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/WurdBendur/delith_halused.png[/img]
Delith nerektos keto doth mül so mili.
Reflections of fear cast shadows of nothing.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Post by Torco »

Or, just get your hands on the IPA Keyboard; I use it when I can't remember the XSAMPA for some feature, like dentalization or whatever.

http://weston.ruter.net/projects/ipa-ch ... /keyboard/

Declan
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Restrictive use of IPA...

Post by Declan »

Jar Jar Binks wrote:I remember some years ago someone here posted a scan of bona fide handwritten X-SAMPA. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
I use the one that's easiest for me to read and write. To type and on a computer that is undoubtedly X-Sampa, but if I was ever doing anything formal, I'd learn to type the IPA. Writing (although I never really transcribe on paper), I'd use IPA for the same reason. That said, I don't really see anything wrong with written X-Sampa, if it's all you know, why not? I would find it awkward, but obviously he didn't!
[quote]Great wit and madness near abide, and fine a line their bounds divide.[/quote]

User avatar
sangi39
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:34 am
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Post by sangi39 »

I've always found IPA easier to read and given its compactness it was generally easier to write as well, at least by hand. OTOH I found X-SAMPA quite difficult to read and "clunky". So, I started writing pretty much only in IPA. Eventually though you kind of get used to reading X-SAMPA with the number of times it turns up and input-wise it's a hell of a lot easier if you're particularly lazy so I've gradually started using X-SAMPA more and more.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Post by Nortaneous »

X-SAMPA is harder to read, but easier to write.

edit: bookmarked the thing Torco linked to, since the conlanger.com one probably couldn't do things like t͡sʲ̴̪ʰŋ̩̊k͡xʷʰe̯ɨĩ̯ʠpʼɴ̥͡ǁǒ̘ː. Of course, it can't handle ` properly, but it looks like nothing can.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Post by Torco »

Nortaneous wrote:edit: bookmarked the thing Torco linked to, since the conlanger.com one probably couldn't do things like t͡sʲ̴̪ʰŋ̩̊k͡xʷʰe̯ɨĩ̯ʠpʼɴ̥͡ǁǒ̘ː. Of course, it can't handle ` properly, but it looks like nothing can.
I couldn't handle IPA without it, copy-pasting is just too much work

User avatar
Curlyjimsam
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:57 am
Location: Elsewhere
Contact:

Post by Curlyjimsam »

To be honest, I think a lot more people use IPA online than did a few years ago. I am routinely surprised to see posts using IPA where, when I first joined the board, I would have expected to see X-SAMPA. I still use X-SAMPA by default online (although not usually elsewhere, unless I'm in a hurry and not bothered about presentation), because I automatically assume IPA won't work. I'm not sure that's true anymore, but it's the mindset I've got myself into all the same.

ing
Niš
Niš
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:52 am

Post by ing »

aɪ pi eɪ ɪz not sɪgnɪfəkəntli mɔ dɪfəkʊɫt tu taɪp ɑʊt ðən ɛks sampə pɹəvaɪdɪd ju hav ə gʊd ɪmpʊt mɛθəd

and ðə bɔd kən oviəsli handəl ɪt ɔ aɪ wʊdənt bi eɪbəɫ tə du ðɪs

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Post by Nortaneous »

aː pʰɨi̯ eɪ̯ meɪ̯ naʔ bɨi̯ ðæʔ sɪgnɪfɪkɪ̃ʔlɪi̯ harɽɵ˞ ɳ̩ ɛks seə̯mpə ɾə tʰʌi̯p æɵ̯ʔ wɪð ə gʊd ɪnpʊʔ mɛθəd bʌʔ sʌm ʌv ʌs ɵ˞ tʰʏʊ̯ leɪ̯zi ɾə ɪnstɔɫ ðə deə̯m θɪŋz

in other news, I really don't like writing transcriptions that are even this broad
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Guitarplayer II
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:44 pm
Location: Marburg, Germany
Contact:

Post by Guitarplayer II »

Are there freely available IPA input methods for Windows anyway, that are easy to setup and edit?

Like, I'm using m17n for UIM on Ubuntu. All you need to do to make an input method for that is editing a plain text file, because m17n works with Lisp. I still haven't figured out why AltGr breaks things, so that I can't use X-Sampa's \ but have to resort to /. `~{} are not possible either as diacritics, sadly, so that I'm using other characters as replacements (that I always have to look up :| ). Or at least I don't know how to work around that.

aɪ ts̠ɹaɪ tʰə jʉːz aɪ pʰiː‿ˈɛɪ ɔn ðə bɔːd ˈmɔɹ‿ɔfn̩ naʊ ˈðæɾaɪm ˈeɪbɫ̩ tʰʉʊ ˈæktʰɪveɪɾɪd‿n̩ tʰaɪpət mɔɹ‿ˈiːzəɫi
Last edited by Guitarplayer II on Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
giˈtaɹ.plɛɪ̯ɚ‿n dɪs.ˈgaɪz • [b][url=http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk]Der Sprachbaukasten[/url][/b]
[size=84]And! [url=http://bit.ly/9dSyTI]Ayeri Reference Grammar[/url] (upd. 28 Sep 2010)[/size]

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Post by Nortaneous »

Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
eodrakken
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Location: Green Mountains
Contact:

Post by eodrakken »

For Windows I use this one, which was made using the tool Nortaneous just linked. The source file is in there, so it might save you some time if it's almost what you want, but you just want to tweak it a little.

I tend to use IPA now that I have an easy input method, but in discussion I usually use whatever transcription method the person I'm replying to is using. Unicode support is better than it used to be, true, but there are still plenty of reasons someone might not be using IPA. For one, they might be using a work, school, or library computer where they're not even allowed to install fonts and/or keyboard layouts.

User avatar
WurdBendur
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:00 am
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Post by WurdBendur »

Speaking of all this, is there a way (in Chromium specifically) to override the font selection, peferably just on the board without affecting every other site? The default fonts used are fine until you start mixing them with fonts that actually contain all of the characters used around here.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/WurdBendur/delith_halused.png[/img]
Delith nerektos keto doth mül so mili.
Reflections of fear cast shadows of nothing.

User avatar
Zhen Lin
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:59 am

Post by Zhen Lin »

I'm sure there's a Firefox extension to do what you want. (But Firefox generally does the right thing with font substitutions anyway.) :P And perhaps a Chrome one as well.
書不盡言、言不盡意

User avatar
WurdBendur
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:00 am
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Post by WurdBendur »

Zhen Lin wrote:(But Firefox generally does the right thing with font substitutions anyway.)
I have never read a more blatant falsehood.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/WurdBendur/delith_halused.png[/img]
Delith nerektos keto doth mül so mili.
Reflections of fear cast shadows of nothing.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Post by Torco »

WurdBendur wrote:Speaking of all this, is there a way (in Chromium specifically) to override the font selection, peferably just on the board without affecting every other site? The default fonts used are fine until you start mixing them with fonts that actually contain all of the characters used around here.
Why do you use Chromium, when Chrome's available for Linux directly from the google repos ? I can only think of commitment to Open Source, but them opensource enthusiasts tend to love the Fox.

User avatar
Zhen Lin
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:59 am

Post by Zhen Lin »

WurdBendur wrote:
Zhen Lin wrote:(But Firefox generally does the right thing with font substitutions anyway.)
I have never read a more blatant falsehood.
It is especially true on Linux, but there I can set up fontconfig to do the right thing as well for all the apps that use it. Less true on other operating systems, yes. (I wish I could figure out how to configure font substitution in Windows.)
書不盡言、言不盡意

User avatar
Alces
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:09 pm
Location: Merseyside, England, UK
Contact:

Post by Alces »

there are still many browsers which don't have the right fonts for IPA, e.g. The phone I'm on now. X-Sampa is more accessible.

doctrellor
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:26 am
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes..:)
Contact:

Post by doctrellor »

I dont have the cash for MS Word for this new comp of mine -- so currently I use Notepad ..:P

And notepad doesn't do IPA ... :( Also X-Sampa is much easier to write
Nilikuonyesha nyota (mwezi) na uliangalia kidole tu.
I pointed out to you the stars (the moon) and all you saw was the tip of my finger.

User avatar
eodrakken
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 225
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Location: Green Mountains
Contact:

Post by eodrakken »

doctrellor wrote:And notepad doesn't do IPA ... :(
It can, though of course you have to bring your own entry method, like a keyboard layout. Then when you save the file, change the encoding to UTF-8 in the dropdown box.

doctrellor
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:26 am
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes..:)
Contact:

Post by doctrellor »

Ah, no shit -- cool. Thx for the tip .>:)
Nilikuonyesha nyota (mwezi) na uliangalia kidole tu.
I pointed out to you the stars (the moon) and all you saw was the tip of my finger.

User avatar
Khvaragh
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Cairo, Egypt
Contact:

Post by Khvaragh »

I usually use X-Sampa here because in the past, IPA almost always showed up as boxes or question marks. As someone with academic linguistic training though, I use IPA everywhere else, because I'm more used to it and it's easier for me to read.
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

Post Reply