Venting thread that still excludes eddy (2)

[alice]

Well, if what you want to achieve politically involves killing unarmed people, it's wrong. Whatever it might be that you want to achieve.

I misguidedly used to take cunningham seriously, as if he really believed all the shit he spouts, but now it is clear that in this case he is just being over-the-top for trolling's sake.

cunningham has been given to us by the LORD to test our faith. Haven't you?

[Pole, the]

My grandpa has auditory hallucinations.

He has admitted to have heard “voices”, interupting him in a conversation. He believes it's a work of the internet messing with people's minds and “Hitler devices” (i.e. devices invented by Hitler in order to enslave the humanity) implanting thoughts in their heads.

From what I have cobbled together, he believes it is done in order to make elderly people (including him) look psychically ill, so they can be put under psychiatric care and killed off. He recounted meeting one of his peers with similar symptoms that was about to undergo a brain surgery — in his mind, undergoing a brain surgery means getting killed. He assumes the other person is dead now and regrets not dissuading him from the surgery. According to him, Obama's “death camps” phrasing was not a slip, but was referring to slaughtering elderly people in Poland at the moment.

(This is not an entirely new thing. He has expressed abnormal behavior before, especially his suspicions about being observed by other people and eavesdropped on by electronic devices. But it was the first time I've seen him being so overt about it. It was also quite weird — if you disregard his assumptions about mind-controlling devices and the psychiatric conspiracy, his reasoning seems quite rational.)

I feel genuinely concerned. Is there anything I could do?

[Travis B.]

I do not know how things work in Poland, but here in the US there is not much you can do about someone with psychosis without insight unless someone proves a danger to themselves or others or the individual does something to come in contact with the criminal justice system or the person becomes so non-functional that they are judged to not be able to take care of themselves at all. So no, TBH, if your grandfather were in the US there probably would not be a whole lot they could do. Also note that if this is newish (yes, you said it is not new, but has this shown up in the last several years or has he always been this way?) this may be part of dementia, and antipsychotics are contraindicated in people with dementia due to increasing death rates.

So were your grandpa in the US he would have to have some degree of insight so he could be talked into seeking help himself, as otherwise there would not be a whole lot that could be done for him in many cases. But I do not know about Poland - it may be completely different in this regard there.

[Ketumak]

I'm afraid the British system is similar to the US one, Travis B described, so international precedents not looking too good. Over here, someone can be "sectioned", i.e. compulsorily placed in a mental health facility and oberserved/assessed for 28 days. This happened to my brother-in-law around 2002. Sectioning requires signatures from a family doctor and close relative who knows the person well. Even then nothing may come of it. My brother-in-law, for example, was intelligent enough to act rational for a couple of weeks and released untreated.

That said, we have all kinds of miniature recording devices these days. Maybe the first step would be to secretly record your grandfather talking and play the recordings to a family doctor and ask what action they recommend?

[Travis B.]

Here in most states they have something where they can keep someone without any specific reason for some short period (e.g. 72 hours). This can then be extended, and generally the person in question can request a hearing to justify it (but one thing is that if they do justify it it turns what might be voluntary into being involuntary). However all the laws surrounding this are specific to individual states, so I cannot generalize much further.

That said, the thing is that he probably does not need inpatient, which is more a holding place for suicidal people, markedly psychotic people (from your description your grandpa does not seem that psychotic), people needing rapid med changes, and people detoxing off of drugs. Rather he probably needs to be evaluated for dementia, to see if that could be at fault.

[Salmoneus]

I'm afraid the British system is similar to the US one, Travis B described, so international precedents not looking too good. Over here, someone can be "sectioned", i.e. compulsorily placed in a mental health facility and oberserved/assessed for 28 days. This happened to my brother-in-law around 2002. Sectioning requires signatures from a family doctor and close relative who knows the person well. Even then nothing may come of it. My brother-in-law, for example, was intelligent enough to act rational for a couple of weeks and released untreated.

My understanding is that section 2 (sectioning for up to 28 days for 'assessment') requires only a request by two medical professionals. Section 3 (sectioning up to 6 months for 'treatment') requires a request by a mental health practitioner appointed by local social services, and the consent of the nearest relative (who can delegate that power) - but if the nearest relative doesn't consent, the mental health practitioner can apply to a court to replace them with someone who will. However, what people do in practice exactly, I don't know.

But yes, you need to be able to show they're a danger to themselves or others. Minding your own business being odd doesn't warrent sectioning. On the other hand, paranoid schizophrenia (which the combination of "hearing voices" and "having bizarre paranoid delusions" at least to a layman suggests) can become dangerous, so that might not be impossible.

The more salient point, however, may just be that if the guy has paranoid delusions motivated by a terror of people compelling him into psychiatric treatment, compelling him into psychiatric treatment may very well just worsen his condition.

If it were me, I guess I'd think the first thing to think about would be whether his mental health issues may be symptoms of something underlying. Dementia, cancer, various endocrine things, etc - even something as simple as a vitamin deficiency can cause psychosis, and some of these things can be treated by doctors. So if you were in a position to talk to his doctor without worrying about them instantly trying to section him, and you could suggest they be on the lookout for conditions that might cause this sort of thing, that might help?

[Travis B.]

I'm afraid the British system is similar to the US one, Travis B described, so international precedents not looking too good. Over here, someone can be "sectioned", i.e. compulsorily placed in a mental health facility and oberserved/assessed for 28 days. This happened to my brother-in-law around 2002. Sectioning requires signatures from a family doctor and close relative who knows the person well. Even then nothing may come of it. My brother-in-law, for example, was intelligent enough to act rational for a couple of weeks and released untreated.

My understanding is that section 2 (sectioning for up to 28 days for 'assessment') requires only a request by two medical professionals. Section 3 (sectioning up to 6 months for 'treatment') requires a request by a mental health practitioner appointed by local social services, and the consent of the nearest relative (who can delegate that power) - but if the nearest relative doesn't consent, the mental health practitioner can apply to a court to replace them with someone who will. However, what people do in practice exactly, I don't know.

But yes, you need to be able to show they're a danger to themselves or others. Minding your own business being odd doesn't warrent sectioning. On the other hand, paranoid schizophrenia (which the combination of "hearing voices" and "having bizarre paranoid delusions" at least to a layman suggests) can become dangerous, so that might not be impossible.

The more salient point, however, may just be that if the guy has paranoid delusions motivated by a terror of people compelling him into psychiatric treatment, compelling him into psychiatric treatment may very well just worsen his condition.

The thing is also that inpatient psychiatric treatment is not necessarily necessary for many individuals experiencing psychosis, as in many cases outpatient treatment is sufficient. Also, forcing someone into inpatient treatment may very well turn them against the idea of being treated at all compared to convincing them to seek outpatient treatment. But then there is the problem of lack of insight, which is a common part of schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder in particular, where individuals with them are oblivious to the fact that they have a mental disorder despite all evidence pointing at that fact, where then involuntary may be necessary to get them any treatment at all, and of course they only end up in involuntary when they have become a danger to themselves or others, had a run-in with the law, or are absolutely, completely non-functional, and even then that does not happen in many cases (as in many cases they end up in jail or prison or end up homeless instead).

If it were me, I guess I'd think the first thing to think about would be whether his mental health issues may be symptoms of something underlying. Dementia, cancer, various endocrine things, etc - even something as simple as a vitamin deficiency can cause psychosis, and some of these things can be treated by doctors. So if you were in a position to talk to his doctor without worrying about them instantly trying to section him, and you could suggest they be on the lookout for conditions that might cause this sort of thing, that might help?

I agree, especially since primary psychotic disorders very rarely arise at an old age (when, say, 45 is an old age for first developing a primary psychotic disorder), whereas organic causes of psychosis very much do, so first psychosis in an elderly person implies some kind of organic issue.

[Ars Lande]

I feel genuinely concerned. Is there anything I could do?

Ditto everyone else, have him see a doctor, and the sooner the better. I've seen this happen to elderly relatives - it turned out to be from organic causes (and fortunately, the symptoms were easily treated);

[masako]

I'm tired. So very tired. I cannot quantify the amount of tired I am.

[Pole, the]

Travis, Ketumak, Sal, Ars Lande, thank you for advices. I'll try to consult other family members.

[cunningham]

It all makes sense now.

[alice]

(snip)

It all makes sense now.

alice is enlightened

[Travis B.]

Fuck. The paranoia isn't fading, it's just changing form, from being pretty much solely about being watched or being talked about by others, to also being about having my food or drink poisoned, my things tampered with or broken into, and so on. One fun delusion was that my mouse was going to be bugged/had been bugged so that my mouse clicks and mouse movements could be tracked, resulting in me hiding said mouse in my car to prevent this when I was not using it (but then I realized they could just break into my car to get at my mouse). Damn you psychosis. Sigh.

[Travis B.]

But yeah. Despite the med change, things still aren't getting better. (Like really, now I have been having thoughts of that my work is personally watching my browsing habits, despite having more than enough employees such that they wouldn't bother, and that cameras have been planted in my house to watch me. Sure, I don't feel as directly watched by my coworkers now, which does make my workday less stressful, but this kind of stuff isn't an improvement.) And yes, I must seem pretty crazy just from what I wrote above, even though in reality things have been much, much worse.

[jal]

First day at work after two weeks of relaxing holiday in Italy (near Naples). Nough said.


JAL

[Risla]

(warning, some TMI ahead)

So I've been having some really scary symptoms lately (heart palpitations and bradycardia, hypotension, tinnitus and feeling of pressure in my head, chest and left arm pain, and air hunger), especially when there's any pressure on my abdomen at all, including from sitting or wearing pants (or worse, sitting WHILE wearing pants), and for ~six hours after eating. This is terrifying and has been really affecting my quality of life, especially in the last three weeks, but it's been an on and off issue for the last six months or so. I'm to the point where I'm crying two or three times every day because I feel like I'm going to die.

I went to the ER over New Year's when the chest and arm pains got bad, and they did a (quick) EKG and chest X-ray and sent me home. I went to a regular doctor a few months ago to bring it up and she basically told me "well you're not dead yet so it's probably not your heart" and referred me to a gynecologist (the aforementioned problems, plus severe joint pain, attacks of profound fatigue, and whole-body edema, also get worse around my cycle).

The gynecologist, after I described my symptoms, said "Let's deal with that later" and prescribed me Chinese herbal medicine (=placebo) for the edema. When I went back and said "it doesn't do anything, and also could we please try to address the other symptoms?" she prescribed me a different type of Chinese herbal medicine. She also asked me "are you constipated?" which is a question that shows a lack of any awareness of my medical history: I had severe ulcerative colitis and had my entire colon removed, and have consequently had diarrhea every single day for the past sixteen years. That seems like a pretty important detail to overlook in a patient…

So anyway it's gotten worse in the last few weeks, and I went back to the original doctor today. I described my symptoms and said that I'm concerned about autonomic dysfunction, especially related to gastrointestinal problems. She then asked me, and I quote, "has anyone ever told you you have an irritable colon?" WELL YES, IT WAS SO IRRITABLE IT ALMOST KILLED ME, BUT NOW I DON'T BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A COLON. At least I managed to wrangle a gastroenterologist referral out of her (she was hesitating to refer me, which is also ridiculous since I am an IBD patient, but I insisted).

If I am trusting someone with my health I need them to try to be vaguely cognizant of my medical history. Jesus Christ. Also I still don't have answers about what is happening to me and what I can do about it, and these problems are making life almost unbearable. I'm really hoping the gastroenterologist will be able to start to help me figure out what is going on and what to do about it, because I am at my wit's end and am under incredible levels of stress about this.

[jal]

Sorry to hear that Risla, I hope someone with some actual medical expertise can help you! (And herbal medicin? Really? Are they even allowed to prescribe that???)


JAL

[Risla]

In the Japanese medical system, they are! Apparently the first stuff they gave me consists of, get this, cinnamon and ground up grasshoppers. I didn't even bother to fill the prescription for the second one.

[Travis B.]

God that sucks Risla. I too hope someone with some actual medical advice can help.

[finlay]

you have to tell every doctor you go to here your entire medical history because they don't have any kind of centralized system, it's tiring. they get you to fill out a standardized form and they often don't read it properly.

good thing is you can just go to another doctor... and hope they're actually better

[Risla]

Yeah, I filled out the forms for both doctors mentioned, and had actually mentioned having UC before in the same appointment. I feel like I just have a sign stapled to my forehead that says "IGNORE EVERYTHING I SAY." This was even a problem with doctors in America (hell, it took collapsing from blood loss on the bathroom floor to get diagnosed with UC) but only seems to be worse here.

I actually think some of the symptoms are probably anxiety (which I mentioned like last week in another thread), like I'm trapped in some kind of autonomic symptoms>anxiety>autonomic symptoms loop (especially the air hunger, which seems to not be related to actual oxygenation, since I can exercise no problem and intense exercise clears it up for a few hours. But I really doubt all of it is from anxiety and even if it is I want to know.

[alice]

(lots of scary stuff)

No, really; that's terrifying, and I'm very sorry to hear that it's affecting you so badly.

I actually think some of the symptoms are probably anxiety (which I mentioned like last week in another thread), like I'm trapped in some kind of autonomic symptoms>anxiety>autonomic symptoms loop

That's a possibility; if it's any consolation, I've been somewhere similar, and it *is* possible to get out again.

But I really doubt all of it is from anxiety and even if it is I want to know.

Well, anxiety can explain a lot of things, but even so you need more than placebos to deal with it. I hope you find out what it is, and that you can get rid of it for good. We wish you all the best.

[Travis B.]

At least anxiety can be treated effectively without too much difficulty, so if anxiety is a significant part of this, this could potentially be treated, at least in part, effectively.

[alynnidalar]

That sounds awful, and I hope you're able to find a good doctor who will actually address your symptoms soon!

In much more minor news, people are free to stop commenting on my hair anytime now. My hair is, in fact, quite long! This is really shocking news that needs to be commented on repeatedly every time I wear my hair down. This is how a typical conversation goes:

"Wow! I didn't know your hair is so long!"
yep that's because i wear it up 95% of the time
"Your hair is REALLY long!"
yeah you just said that
"HOW did your hair get that long??
i don't cut it... what did you think the answer was gonna be, unicorn blood and virgins sacrificed to volcanoes?
"You should wear your hair down more often!!"
yeah if that was a thing i wanted to do, i would already be doing it
"You should cut your hair!!"
if that what a thing i wanted to do, i'd already be doing that too
"Your hair is just SO LONG!!"
so could yours be if you didn't cut it for two decades
"I just didn't know your hair was that long!!"
...i'm going back to work now

I really don't get why people get so AMAZED!!! by it. It's just hair, for crying out loud. Most people have it. It feels like old people going on and on about how BIG their grandkids are getting... hair, much like children, grows.

(and it's not even absurdly long--just down to the small of my back. I've known a lot of women with significantly longer hair)

[Travis B.]

I feel really disappointed. I've had problems with avolition and social withdrawal for years now, and I thought I had found the right med that would put a dent in it, cariprazine. It worked well for my avolition. For a few weeks. Then it pooped out on me, leaving me back where I was before but now making it more obvious than before, now that I had a short period where the avolition had all but lifted. There is always upping the cariprazine, but I expect that to turn out the same way again. The big problem is that there is very little that works for negative symptoms, and cariprazine is one of the few things that does seem to work for many. So now I need to find some other way to combat them.