Happy Things Thread

[din]

I've never been to Poland, but putting Krakow and Gdansk in one trip seems a little odd, as they're at opposite ends of the country. Isn't it better to pick one region and see more of it, rather than spending a lot of time traveling between two places?

[Viktor77]

I've never been to Poland, but putting Krakow and Gdansk in one trip seems a little odd, as they're at opposite ends of the country. Isn't it better to pick one region and see more of it, rather than spending a lot of time traveling between two places?

You're right, but since there's so much to see in Europe and I doubt I'll be back in Poland anytime soon I want to take advantage of my time there to see the one part of Poland I most want to see which is Gdansk and Masuria. Krakow as well, but that's more my husband who's interested in Krakow.

[Pole, the]

Yes I suspect it must have been that. I'll write them back in German hehe, but it won't be flawless. They've planned us a nice trip though I suspect it'll be over the budget we set so we might have to cut stuff.

Is Cracow included? If it's your first time to Poland, you absolutel have to see Cracow!

Yeah. You have completely to see the smog. And the machetes.

If your complexion is significantly more dark than the average Pole's one, then you can also enjoy a one-way trip to Auschwitz.

/s

[Viktor77]

Yeah. You have completely to see the smog. And the machetes.

If your complexion is significantly more dark than the average Pole's one, then you can also enjoy a one-way trip to Auschwitz.

/s

Woah.

Aren't you from the Masuria area? They suggested a trip to Mikolajki and Ritterordensburg in Malbork. I'm assuming that anywhere in that region is good for seeing the East Prussian countryside and/or East Prussian architecture.

[Pole, the]

Nope, I am from the west.

I can advise you to see Wrocław. Then you can go there and there and there and there and there.
And maybe also there and there. And, most importantly, there.

Or, you can go to Poznań. And then se the buildings near the Fredry/Niepodległości crossroad and turn in circles until you are sure you have seen everything. Then go there, there, there, there, there, there.

(I am not saying, however, that these two haven't had xenophobic incidents recently.)

[WeepingElf]

Have had our first band rehearsal tonight, worked out well. Yeah!

[Pole, the]

BTW, I have just come across this blog, which has some interesting places (a bike trail) to visit in northeastern Poland.

[Viktor77]

Thanks for the tips! I think the trip will be rather controlled but I'm more than positive we can throw ideas at our guide. I'm not sure how it works, I think it's independent with the agency booking everything. It just seemed easier this way since I don't speak Polish and I quite frankly know nothing about Poland. We won't get to do too many big trips in Europe while we're here, Poland and Norway will probably be the only serious ones, others being smaller. We don't have a ton of money to throw around unfortunately, but I'm excited about Poland, especially Masuria and Danzig after reading so many books on WWI and II history. I have a thing for East Prussian history, I mean, my conlang is based on East Prussia. I only wish we could see the place in summer, but you have to sacrifice some things.

Have had our first band rehearsal tonight, worked out well. Yeah!

I hope you had a great fun! Was it in the garage like you see portrayed on TV shows?

[Pole, the]

If you have a guide then I bet they have a better idea of the places than me.

I have never visited the northeast. I have only once been to Gdansk and it was a one-day trip, so I don't have many places to recommend. I have enjoyed visiting the Sopot pier, but it's better in summer, I guess.

[Viktor77]

If you have a guide then I bet they have a better idea of the places than me.

I have never visited the northeast. I have only once been to Gdansk and it was a one-day trip, so I don't have many places to recommend. I have enjoyed visiting the Sopot pier, but it's better in summer, I guess.

Hopefully we can go there, they're thinking now it's too much like Din said.

Ok, I wrote 1 last email in German pretending to be German, but now I have to stop having fun and get serious. But I found the perfect excuse. See my partner doesn't speak German and he wants to be cc'd so now I'm going to switch to English so he can understand haha. She can keep responding in German. Anyway, being mistaken for being German was fun, but I can't keep asking friends to look over what I write, and I can't arrange for tour guides in German, so time to go back to English !

[finlay]

...Or you could just tell her you're American, job done.

[Viktor77]

...Or you could just tell her you're American, job done.

Technically I never confirmed anything regarding my nationality and she knows I live in Belgium, so I just went with what she assumed because it was fun to dust off my rusty German. But yes the charade is over now, down to business.

[Salmoneus]

If the point is East Prussia, why aren't you visiting East Prussia? Gdansk is not and never has been part of East Prussia.

[Viktor77]

If the point is East Prussia, why aren't you visiting East Prussia? Gdansk is not and never has been part of East Prussia.

Basically because 1) I'd need a visa and 2) most of what is in Kaliningrad has been destroyed. Poland owns half of East Prussia and we are trying to go there to Marienburg/Malbork. Gdansk is nearby and it was twice its own free city which would be fascinating to learn about there at a museum, or to see monuments.

[Bristel]

Happy thing: I'm learning more about world history because I've been playing a semi-historical game called Europa Universalis IV.

It's interesting learning about countries and kingdoms that existed in the mid 1400s.

I've been reading about the Livonian Order (modern Latvia/Lithuania), Riga, the Teutonic Order, the Mamluks and Ottoman Empire.

[jmcd]

Yeah, I learnt more about history and geography thanks to that game too. Try not to overuse it though; it's addictive.

[hwhatting]

If the point is East Prussia, why aren't you visiting East Prussia? Gdansk is not and never has been part of East Prussia.

Basically because 1) I'd need a visa and 2) most of what is in Kaliningrad has been destroyed. Poland owns half of East Prussia and we are trying to go there to Marienburg/Malbork. Gdansk is nearby and it was twice its own free city which would be fascinating to learn about there at a museum, or to see monuments.

I don't think you got what Sal was saying. Gdańsk/Danzig and Malbork/Marienburg are historically West Prussia, not East Prussia. TBH, that's a fact even most Germans aren't aware of. I know it because my grandfather came from Elbląg/Elbing and didn't like it when people said, "Oh, so you're from East Prussia". After WWI, the Imperial German province of West Prussia was divided - the westernmost and easternmost parts (blue and red on this map stayed German, Danzig (green) became a free city, and the rest (yellow) became the Polish corridor. Since WW II, all these areas are Polish.

[Viktor77]

I don't think you got what Sal was saying. Gdańsk/Danzig and Malbork/Marienburg are historically West Prussia, not East Prussia. TBH, that's a fact even most Germans aren't aware of. I know it because my grandfather came from Elbląg/Elbing and didn't like it when people said, "Oh, so you're from East Prussia". After WWI, the Imperial German province of West Prussia was divided - the westernmost and easternmost parts (blue and red on this map stayed German, Danzig (green) became a free city, and the rest (yellow) became the Polish corridor. Since WW II, all these areas are Polish.

Ah, see from the way I understood it when I was researching period maps, Marienburg was right over the East Prussian border, at the meeting point of the Free City of Danzig, the Corridor, and East Prussia but within East Prussian territory. In fact the map you send shows otherwise. That was with reference to this map. But perhaps I just read it wrong.

Well, Marienburg in any case is close to East Prussia so it'll still be interesting. Someday I'll have to delve in deeper, but that would be better in summer anyway since this is a gorgeous part of Poland that is best appreciated when the lakes are not frozen over.

I'm intrigued by the fact your grandfather came from this area. Was he forced out after WWI? I have always wondered how many Germans can count their ancestors as coming from these present-day regions of Poland and Russia (West/East Prussia, East Pomerania, and Silesia for the most part) and if there is an active tourism industry of Germans trying to find or visit their ancestral homes/towns. I remain fascinated by this part of Europe because of how quickly it changed affiliation. Most of this area (save Upper Silesia and the areas around Posen) were German to the core for centuries and in the course of 1 war went from being 90% German to 1% German, places like Koenigsberg and the entire countryside. No one talks about East Pomerania or Silesia but I'd imagine almost all of the Germans there have left as well.

[Salmoneus]

The situation is slightly complicated.

Danzig was never part of East Prussia. It was part of Pomeralia (which the Poles confusingly called Pomerania) then Royal Prussia (the part of 'prussia' ruled by Poland), then West Prussia, then was a free city, then was polish.

Elbing and Marienburg are a little more difficult. They were part of Pogesania, then part of Prussia, then part of Royal Prussia, then West Prussia. The tricky bit is that from 1922 to 1939, they were in The Governorate of West Prussia, but because this governorate had become so small it was placed administratively within The Province of East Prussia. So these two towns were theoretically part of an East Prussia from 1922-1939, while still remaining part of West Prussia all the time, because West Prussia was demoted to be a part of East Prussia. [From 1939 to 1945 they were reunited with Danzig, and then became part of Poland] This is why you're confused by the maps: it was both East and West Prussia simultaneously, depending what level you are looking at.

Marienwerder, on the other hand, was originally part of Pomesania (not to be confused with Pomerania, Pomeralia, or Pogesania), but was conquered by Prussia, and remained part of Prussia all the way to 1772, when it became part of West Prussia. From then on it's gone along with Marienburg. The difference is that Marienwerder was never Polish (until it was conquered and ethnically cleansed in the 1940s), whereas Marienburg/Elbing were Polish from 1466-1772. In that respect, the latter pattern with Danzig, except that unlike Danzig they stayed with Germany after WWI.

Marienburg is apparently one of the most complete examples of obliteration: not only were there zero civilian survivors of the Soviet conquest, but the new Polish rulers intentionally took all the bricks from demolished buildings and used them to rebuild Polish towns instead. Even the masonry had to pay reparations! So now there's essentially no pre-Polish features of the town, other than the remains of the castle. Which is, fun fact, the largest brick building in Europe.

You're right that much of Koenigsburg was also destroyed, but my impression is that far more significant old structures have survived. Though, yes, being in Russia is a bit of an obstacle.

[Viktor77]

Did you know all of that history off the top of your head? Because if so, impressive. And thanks for clearing that up. We will be visiting the castle but I suppose if I could've chosen a different city I would've, somewhere deeper into East Prussia. Originally we were to go to Mikolajki but now apparently not.

And don't get me wrong, I would terribly enjoy going to Kaliningrad. But I don't know what would be involved with such a trip and I'd imagine a minimal knowledge of Russian would be quite vital. When I looked up going to Belarus (which won't happen but I was curious) the guide basically advised against going if one does not have at a least a minimal knowledge of Russian. Though I suppose there are always ways to bridge communication gaps.

[hwhatting]

I'm intrigued by the fact your grandfather came from this area. Was he forced out after WWI?

Elbing belonged to that small red part on the map that stayed with Germany after WWI. My grandfather fought in WWII and ended up a PoW in France. When he was released in 1948, he couldn't go back to Elbing, which was Polish by that time, but went to Western Germany instead, where his family was already waiting for him (My Grandmother was originally from Thuringia, had returned there shortly before the war ended, and had gone to Western Germany when she saw where Eastern Germany was heading).

I have always wondered how many Germans can count their ancestors as coming from these present-day regions of Poland and Russia (West/East Prussia, East Pomerania, and Silesia for the most part) and if there is an active tourism industry of Germans trying to find or visit their ancestral homes/towns.

Yes, there is, especially after the end of Communism - there are regular tours etc. But the generation that still remembers their old homeland is dying, and my impression is that the following generations are less interested (that's at least what I see in my extended family). OTOH, Areas like Mazury or cities like Wrocław and Gdańsk are great travel destinations in their own right, so there are many German tourists who don't have an "Eastern" background.

I remain fascinated by this part of Europe because of how quickly it changed affiliation. Most of this area (save Upper Silesia and the areas around Posen) were German to the core for centuries and in the course of 1 war went from being 90% German to 1% German, places like Koenigsberg and the entire countryside. No one talks about East Pomerania or Silesia but I'd imagine almost all of the Germans there have left as well.

Yes, it's the same with Pomerania and most of Silesia. The biggest German minority actually stayed in the mining areas of Upper Silesia, where mining specialists were allowed to stay, and, as I understand it, identities anyway were more fluid, so some people who had indentified as German under German rule changed their self-identification to Polish after WW II, and then back to German when it became safer in the 1980s.

[jmcd]

That's similar to what happened with my own grandfather on my mother's side. Except that he was a POW in the Channel Islands and originally came from Zittau (so his hometown was still part of (East) Germany after the war).

[Viktor77]

Thank you for that, Hwatting. That was very interesting. If there's one thing that seems to absolutely fascinate me it's narratives of loss of homeland. I've read a number of memoirs dealing with losing one's homeland for many and various reasons. What fascinates me more is when a country cuts off ancestral territories so that people who used to interact every day are forever divided, or where former landscapes are forever altered by human manipulation. Some good examples are Lithuanian and Polish families divided by the Curzon line with the establishment of the Belarus SSR in the former Polish Kresy. Also families divided by the Berlin Wall or even more widely by East and West Germany. People are forced out or forced to take on a new identity because someone somewhere decided to divide up the land this way. Europe has quite a lot of this going on.

I have ancestors whose last place of residency were the far reaches of Prussia like Posen and Wloclawek. I have no idea if they were pure Germans or mixed, but a lot of them have Prussian surnames (this I know because they often end in the diminutive -ke ie. Jahnke or Gatske). Another is Pankonin which is a Germanization? of Polish so I assume they must've been Polish at some point.

[Salmoneus]

Did you know all of that history off the top of your head? Because if so, impressive.

No, I looked it up because the maps puzzled me. Although I did know that Danzig was West Prussia originally, and suspected that Marienburg was too.

And don't get me wrong, I would terribly enjoy going to Kaliningrad. But I don't know what would be involved with such a trip and I'd imagine a minimal knowledge of Russian would be quite vital. When I looked up going to Belarus (which won't happen but I was curious) the guide basically advised against going if one does not have at a least a minimal knowledge of Russian. Though I suppose there are always ways to bridge communication gaps.

I suspect Kaliningrad - while trickier than Poland - would be much easier than Belarus. Kaliningrad is a west-facing tourist town that isn't even entirely happy being part of Russia (they vote communist, it's believed, but the elections are heavily rigged so Putin's party always wins - but they've had a lot of street protests against him). And even Russia is only authoritarian, and does have a big tourist industry. Belarus, on the other hand, is an insular and xenophobic dictatorship who are in the process of quite literally, and even in the dictator's own words, re-introducing serfdom.

[Viktor77]

I suspect Kaliningrad - while trickier than Poland - would be much easier than Belarus. Kaliningrad is a west-facing tourist town that isn't even entirely happy being part of Russia (they vote communist, it's believed, but the elections are heavily rigged so Putin's party always wins - but they've had a lot of street protests against him). And even Russia is only authoritarian, and does have a big tourist industry. Belarus, on the other hand, is an insular and xenophobic dictatorship who are in the process of quite literally, and even in the dictator's own words, re-introducing serfdom.

That interests me that Kaliningrad is not happy being part of Russia. I'll have to find some additional literature on that. I'm wondering if it could go all the way back to East Prussia as there are several election result maps in Poland (for example 2011 senate results) where the results basically formed the borders of former Prussia despite the low remaining populations of Germans.

I know I'm abusing the hell out of this thread so I promise this is the last news I will post, I'm just so excited about it. I bought tickets to go to both broadcast semi-finals of Eurovision 2016 in Stockholm. I waited 1.5 hours for grand final tickets but they sold out too quickly. Still I'm super excited even though it was not cheap.