Creativity of the day

Discussions worth keeping around later.
User avatar
WeepingElf
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by WeepingElf »

sirdanilot wrote:Oh what fun, a creativity thread

I like trams and I like tram maps. I also like fictional maps, so the thing I perhaps like most is a fictional tram map of a city that doesn't exist. I completed one some time ago. It is for another con-worlding site. The country is inspired on the Zeeland province in the Netherlands, as far as language/dialect, religion, culture etc. goes.

The capital is also a bit inspired on Amsterdam but that is just random. Grey are trams, black dots are tram stops, coloured lines are subway, and the things with names are subway stations, RTM means train station, O are underground stations and S are lightrail stations (the lightrail shares the subway infrastructure).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/294 ... vfinal.png
Yeah. I am also fond of trams, tram maps and fictional maps. Hence, I have a fictional city, too, though so far only a few rough sketches exist. It is smaller than yours - about 200,000 inhabitants, accordingly no subway network, but six tram lines, a monorail line, and several bus lines.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

Mine should be about a million, but in an agglomeration of about say 3-4 million inhabitants.

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by finlay »

Trams suck. :|

User avatar
din
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:02 pm
Location: Brussels

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by din »

At least they're better than buses. I really dislike buses. Metros are easily my favorite form of public transport.

Usually I risk my life and ride my bike though.
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

finlay wrote:Trams suck. :|
Haters gon' hate.

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by finlay »

din wrote:At least they're better than buses. I really dislike buses. Metros are easily my favorite form of public transport.

Usually I risk my life and ride my bike though.
Trams are just a kind of bus that can't move around things...

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

Except more comfortable, more environmentally friendly and better able to move large amounts of people in one vehicle, yes.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Torco »

I'm not sure i get the point of trams these days: it's like this weird rail-bus hybrid that has the disadvantages of both: it runs on rails which, unlike a subway, are not shielded from dust or cars or people or stuff, it's as large as a bus <so you don't get the economies of scale of a hundred-meter-long-vehicle>, it's subject to mishaps that trains are not <since they often travel using the same same spaces as cars and buses>. to me they seem a bit outdated. You could get most of the benefits without the hassle of them by using trolleybuses <you know, trams that run on street wheels where the driver can, well, actually drive>.

User avatar
Particles the Greek
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:48 am
Location: Between clauses

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Particles the Greek »

Public transport is dead, man. Jetpacks are where it's at.
Non fidendus est crocodilus quis posteriorem dentem acerbum conquetur.

User avatar
Tropylium
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Tropylium »

araceli wrote:Public transport is dead, man. Jetpacks are where it's at.
I'll hold out for teleportation, thanks.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]

User avatar
gach
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:03 am
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by gach »

araceli wrote:Public transport is dead, man. Jetpacks are where it's at.
"Reports of jetpack related casualties due to in-flight engine failure have recently gone down. As for now, it is unclear if this is due to decreased usage of this novelty item or if only the more reliably working units have survived in use."

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by finlay »

Trams are also a massive sore point in my hometown, where the government has spent in the region of £2 billion building tracks and setting the damn things up - they were finally completed this year after about something like seven years. There are untold mutitudes of better things they could have spent the money on, including more buses, of course, but by the time there was a new local government that wasn't so much in favour of them, and there was an expensive mishap (the tracks didn't last an unusually cold winter and buckled everywhere), the project had progressed far enough that, counterintuitively, it would have cost the same amount or less to just finish it than it would have to scrap the whole thing, and I suppose now they've finished it they have a chance of making back some of the money.

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

Torco wrote:I'm not sure i get the point of trams these days: it's like this weird rail-bus hybrid that has the disadvantages of both: it runs on rails which, unlike a subway, are not shielded from dust or cars or people or stuff, it's as large as a bus <so you don't get the economies of scale of a hundred-meter-long-vehicle>, it's subject to mishaps that trains are not <since they often travel using the same same spaces as cars and buses>. to me they seem a bit outdated. You could get most of the benefits without the hassle of them by using trolleybuses <you know, trams that run on street wheels where the driver can, well, actually drive>.
Due to the fact that you do not live in Europe, you probably haven't seen many extensive tram networks, such as the ones found in cities like Amsterdam. They function quite well in densely built cities with a limited amount of space. The city center of Amsterdam would be much less appealing if all the trams were replaced by gazillions of buses. Of course a more extensive subway network could help, but subways are extremely expensive to build. The current subway project in Amsterdam is costing several billions of euros for just a small track of 8 stations.

A tram can actually hold many more people than a bus, contrary to what you believe (maybe you only know the historic, small trams?). Trams often run on dedicated tram tracks; only in the city centers and other crowded places, they run on the road, but even then often on dedicated lanes. Tram stops right in the middle of the road are avoided whenever possible. In a city with an extended tram network, the inflexibility isn't a really large issue, since often the trams can just take another route (this happens very regularly in Amsterdam during construction). The tram is much easier and cheaper to build than an actual subway; this is why some planned subway tracks in Amsterdam have been actually built as tram tracks (such as tram 26; and subway 51 is partly a tram-subway hybrid like thing). The tram network in Amsterdam is still being extended to this day.

A trolley bus and a tram are actually much more similar than you think. There is, however, only one Dutch city with trolley busses (Arnhem), and three larger cities with a tram network (plus a plethora of their suburbs, and even several cities that plan on (re)building a tram network). The reason for this is simply that trolley busses are used less throughout the world, meaning that the trolley busses themselves and their maintenance is more expensive than the maintenance for trams. Also, trolley busses don't have the advantage of being able to transport more people than a regular bus, so there's honestly little reason to use a trolley bus over a normal bus. I wouldn't be surprised if the trolley bus in Arnhem would cease to exist at some point; it exists mostly because it's simply already there since the thing was invented.

Trams are not suitable for very widespread cities or for smaller towns; then regular busses are much better. They are als not very suitable for a city like new york, since the trams would be filled to the brim and cause absolute gridlock. Instead, a subway works better in such enormous cities. But for a city of say 200,000 to 1 million inhabitants, it works like a charm.

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

finlay wrote:Trams are also a massive sore point in my hometown, where the government has spent in the region of £2 billion building tracks and setting the damn things up - they were finally completed this year after about something like seven years. There are untold mutitudes of better things they could have spent the money on, including more buses, of course, but by the time there was a new local government that wasn't so much in favour of them, and there was an expensive mishap (the tracks didn't last an unusually cold winter and buckled everywhere), the project had progressed far enough that, counterintuitively, it would have cost the same amount or less to just finish it than it would have to scrap the whole thing, and I suppose now they've finished it they have a chance of making back some of the money.
What is your hometown, Tokyo? The idea of a tram in Tokyo seems a bit absurd to me. Then again, I heard the subways are filled to the brim there and people have to actually push the travellers inside to get the doors to close, so maybe it's just absolutely necessary to relieve the subway network?

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Torco »

actually, Valparaíso, a couple hours away from me by car, has trams... though, granted, not precisely a huge network of them. I'm not claiming trams are stupid, mind you, they make sense for medium-sized cities, it's just that trolleybuses seem to me to have all of the advantages <except maybe that rails pollute a less than rubber tires> and none of the disadvantages <they don't need dedicated lanes, they can dodge obstacles, they can overpass slow vehicles, and generally adapt to the conditions on the road>. But sure, inertia is a reason for things: we all use MSOffice mostly because we all use MSOffice, for example.

EDIT: are those cable thingies safe? i always get the feeling that they would kill birds and might come loose and electrocute a person and whatnot.

User avatar
احمکي ارش-ھجن
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I didn't know what a tram was, so I looked it up.
Yea, I think streetcars are cool too.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

Torco wrote:actually, Valparaíso, a couple hours away from me by car, has trams... though, granted, not precisely a huge network of them. I'm not claiming trams are stupid, mind you, they make sense for medium-sized cities, it's just that trolleybuses seem to me to have all of the advantages <except maybe that rails pollute a less than rubber tires> and none of the disadvantages <they don't need dedicated lanes, they can dodge obstacles, they can overpass slow vehicles, and generally adapt to the conditions on the road>. But sure, inertia is a reason for things: we all use MSOffice mostly because we all use MSOffice, for example.
I am not sure how a trolley bus would be able to overpass a slow vehicle since it's bound to the electric wires that run above it. Also, as I said, a trolley bus can move as much people in one vehicle as a regular bus, and costs much more. There actually used to be more trolley bus cities in the Netherlands than just Arnhem, but all of them abolished it either in favour of the tram or in favour of regular buses, and only Arnhem remains. Contrary to what I thought they are actually still extending their trolley bus network, so it probably does have some merit that I don't know of. One advantage is that when the trolley wires are broken, a normal bus can travel on the same route (this is not always possible on a tram track when the tram doesn't travel on road, though of course there are usually parallel roads nearby).
EDIT: are those cable thingies safe? i always get the feeling that they would kill birds and might come loose and electrocute a person and whatnot.
I guess they're as safe as anything, as I don't know of any accidents with them. Their main disadvantage is that they can tear/break and that they need maintenance which is expensive. Some people find them ugly, but to me the city center of Amsterdam wouldn't be the same without the plethora of trams. It kinda makes the city and gives it a kind of charm, otherwise it just looks like a very big, filthy museum (yes Amsterdam is actually quite a filthy city with garbage everywhere, especially in the older parts such as China Town).

An example of a city with tram networks that only run on dedicated tram tracks is Zoetermeer, a suburb of the Hague (den haag). The tram rails run on old convential rail tracks that were rebuilt to become tram tracks, and the tram now runs from the suburb directly into the city center of the hague where it also runs on regular tram-in-road tracks. In this fashion, the tram can function as a kind of subway except cheaper.

They used to have plans for a tram in my city (there were trams in the 1950s, but they were pulled by horses so they weren't very fast and everything was torn down), but the plans were abolished because of people protesting, and because the tram connects a not-so-popular suburb to another not so popular suburb, so it wouldn't get enough travellers. It was only a political project to promote 'green thinking' and crap like that. A tram could be possible in my city if it would run to another city (such as the hague or zoetermeer), but for political reasons there aren't plans for that (these cities are in a different 'city region' than mine and different city regions don't like to cooperate).

User avatar
gach
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:03 am
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by gach »

Torco wrote:EDIT: are those cable thingies safe? i always get the feeling that they would kill birds and might come loose and electrocute a person and whatnot.
Birds will sit happily also on high voltage power cables without getting any harm of it. They have both of their legs on the same potential so there's no current flowing through them. Occasionally you do get an unlucky one that manages to both ground itself and get a connection to a cable but this is very rare simply because most birds are just too small to achieve this.

It also sounds very strange why would air suspended power cables fall down unless there's an unusually strong storm or trees falling on them or if they've been criminally badly installed.

hwhatting
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2315
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:49 am
Location: Bonn, Germany

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by hwhatting »

sirdanilot wrote:
Torco wrote:actually, Valparaíso, a couple hours away from me by car, has trams... though, granted, not precisely a huge network of them. I'm not claiming trams are stupid, mind you, they make sense for medium-sized cities, it's just that trolleybuses seem to me to have all of the advantages <except maybe that rails pollute a less than rubber tires> and none of the disadvantages <they don't need dedicated lanes, they can dodge obstacles, they can overpass slow vehicles, and generally adapt to the conditions on the road>. But sure, inertia is a reason for things: we all use MSOffice mostly because we all use MSOffice, for example.
I am not sure how a trolley bus would be able to overpass a slow vehicle since it's bound to the electric wires that run above it.
Well, it can, and it's actually often a problem. I'm currently living in Almaty (yes, again), which has inherited a trolley bus system built during Soviet times. They have now a lot of new buses running on it, so someone seems to built them. ;-)
In any case, I've seen a lot of traffic jams caused by trolley buses losing the contact with the electrical wires due to dodging and overtaking manoeuvers. In that case, the driver needs to get out and reconnect the trolley pole with the wires using a special rod, with takes time and, well, causes traffic jams.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Torco »

gotta love the soviets :D

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

I read a bit about the trolley bus and yes indeed it seems possible to dodge and overtake using a trolley bus.

But you know, to be honest, there are rarely obstacles on a tram line because you kinda either get crushed by the tram, or you go out of the way yourself. Though it does happen sometimes that a truck is unloading stuff on the tram line, yes, and then you have to wait. But oftentimes even a bus couldn't pass in such a scenario, as in Holland most streets are kinda narrow.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Torco »

well it's not the technology's fault if the dutch prefer impractically narrow streets. :P

but sure, some tech is better suited for some cities than other tech. the kind of public transit funiculars you see in valparaíso, for example, would be retarded in holland. <or anywhere else that's not very very hilly>

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by clawgrip »

sirdanilot wrote:
finlay wrote:Trams are also a massive sore point in my hometown, where the government has spent in the region of £2 billion building tracks and setting the damn things up - they were finally completed this year after about something like seven years. There are untold mutitudes of better things they could have spent the money on, including more buses, of course, but by the time there was a new local government that wasn't so much in favour of them, and there was an expensive mishap (the tracks didn't last an unusually cold winter and buckled everywhere), the project had progressed far enough that, counterintuitively, it would have cost the same amount or less to just finish it than it would have to scrap the whole thing, and I suppose now they've finished it they have a chance of making back some of the money.
What is your hometown, Tokyo? The idea of a tram in Tokyo seems a bit absurd to me. Then again, I heard the subways are filled to the brim there and people have to actually push the travellers inside to get the doors to close, so maybe it's just absolutely necessary to relieve the subway network?
Tokyo used to have an extensive tram network. Eventually, subways were built (often on the exact same routes as the trams) and the trams disappeared. Now there is just one lone tram line in Tokyo.

The pushing thing is a bit of a legend...partly true and partly not. People have seen pictures of station staff ramming commuters into the trains and assume this is the daily goings on of Tokyo. Sometimes some pushing is necessary, but it is usually pushing someone's bag in that's caught in the door or something like that. I've really only seen them pushing people in when there was a major train delay. On the other hand, I have seen people spend an inordinate amount of time trying desperately to push themselves onto a full train, even though another one (almost certainly less crowded) will be there within two minutes.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by Torco »

perhaps they just need to feel like they're being hugged ?

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Creativity of the day

Post by sirdanilot »

Torco wrote:well it's not the technology's fault if the dutch prefer impractically narrow streets. :P

but sure, some tech is better suited for some cities than other tech. the kind of public transit funiculars you see in valparaíso, for example, would be retarded in holland. <or anywhere else that's not very very hilly>
Well many tram lines run in the city centres, which are usually quite old and old means narrow streets generally. In the suburbs, the tram often runs on a dedicated tram track and is not in the way of car traffic.

There is also a suburb that chose to build dedicated bus roads instead of tram tracks (yes, an actual separate bus road network and not just bus lanes on existing roads), Almere, an Amsterdam suburb. It's very funny if a car accidentally gets onto the bus road because they have to pay a fine of more than 100 euros, hahaha ! :-D And there are also some kinds of obstacles that only buses can pass and regular cars cannot (we call it a bus-floodgate).

Post Reply