Venting thread that still excludes eddy (2)

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Vijay »

Risla wrote:I'm incredibly alone and I'm drowning in it.

I don't know how much of this people here are aware of, but I was emotionally abused, neglected, and profoundly isolated as a child. I was "homeschooled," which in my case meant that I was locked in a house my entire childhood and never provided a basic education or any social outlets. I've worked so, so hard to try to pick up the pieces and make an actual life for myself, but it's such an incredibly uphill battle right now. I have absolutely zero social support and I so desperately need it. I'm pretty certain that the people I talk to the most are convenience store clerks. No friends, incredibly toxic family. I don't think people who actually have functional families can even understand this level of sheer isolation.

I just don't see any ways forward. I just fundamentally don't seem to understand other human beings and how they connect with each other. I wish someone would give me a chance but it's just clear that there is nobody willing to put up with the stupid social blunders of a 27-year-old loser who never even had a chance to learn how to interact with other people. So I continue. I am untouchable, impossible to care about, unlovable. I am so sick of trying.
I'm very sorry to hear all of this, but for whatever it's worth, I care and don't find you unlovable at all. If it helps you feel any better, almost all my social interaction these days is online with people such as you. I don't regret it.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Salmoneus »

Imralu wrote:I've clearly got some way to go with my self esteem stuff, like, just feeling that I'm OK as a person and to stop looking for reasons why someone might not feel favourably towards me.
It might be worth bearing in mind that there are actually four different things going on here. Even if you struggle with one, you might be able to make progress on one of the others.

The first is the common fallacy by which people over-interpret the actions of others. We over-ascribe intent (and relevence): most of the things people do are accidental, half-hearted, unplanned, and poorly thought through, but there's a tendency to analyse them as though they were cunning chess moves. Actually, until there's unambiguous evidence to the contrary, it's best to assume that everyone else only rarely thinks of you at all, and that most of the things they do, they do while thinking about something else. [this actually is easier to implement if you DO have low self-esteem! After all, paranoia is a form of narcissism...]
Of course, this is a very understandable impulse, from an evolutionary point of view: we have little information about intent, so we tend to over-interpret the little evidence we do get. So there's nothing wrong with the impulse to make these assumptions in general; it's just good to try to temper it when it gets carried away, and to remind oneself of one's own ignorance.

The second is less common, but still widespread: there's a common tendency to specifically see threats and hostility in the actions of others. This, again, isn't a surprise - particularly those who have felt unsafe in their lives, there's a natural inclination to avoid danger by being hyper-alert to the threats people pose. It's like the way we flinch when our subconscious predicts we're about to hit something. Of course, most of the time, the actual threat is limited. Again, most people don't care deeply enough about you to want to hurt you.

Now, you seem to recognise that you're doing this. But the most interesting bit, to my mind, is the bit that you don't acknowledge there: the Stockholm-esque leap from "people are hostile toward me" to "I have low value". Perceiving hostility isn't itself a self-esteem issue - it's just as likely, if not more likely, among narcissists! Interpreting the perceived hostility as justified is another thing entirely - in a way, you're being charmingly, impressively trusting and optimistic in your faith in other people, assuming that if they don't like you they must have a good reason. Personally, I struggle to maintain that excess-other-esteem standard - when others fail to realise how wonderful I am, I generally assume that's their fault...

So if you can't help yourself read intent into minor actions, and if you really can't, on some occasion, help but read that intent as hostile... maybe try suggesting to yourself that, ok, maybe he doesn't like me, not because I'm worthless but because he's a fucking moron.

Of course, that's not exactly a long-term cure - because going around always assuming everyone else is a fucking moron who doesn't realise how wonderful you are is, if anything, a bigger problem than having a low self-esteem. But in the heat of the moment, it may be a useful counterbalance from time to time...

So the other day, my pretending-to-consider was seen through and I was told "We planned for you as well. Come on! We need you to help us finish this!" and then I tried not to appear too eager and race to the table while also trying not to come across as too cool and unthankful, which is a really awkward balance. Years ago, from this exact feeling, I felt so weird about saying thank you for things done for me that I felt were not necessary and weren't expected, that I generally tried to act more surprised than grateful and for some reason felt saying "thank you" would give the impression that I felt entitled to it whereas a stunned "oh!" would convey the appropriate "I-don't-deserve-this-why-are-you-so-good-to-me-ness". I have no idea how I arrived at that weird idea that "thank you" sounds entitled, but maybe it was more like I didn't know how to say it with the right intonation ...
You know, you should maybe try living in England. You'd fit right in here... wanting-to-say-thank-you-but-not-wanting-to-sound-presumptious-and-worrying-the-good-thing-was-unintentional-or-else-that-they-really-hate-you-and-will-hate-them-more-if-you-normalise-their-sacrifice-by-thanking-them is like... almost peak Englishness. Second only to wanting-to-apologise-but-worrying-that-having-to-listen-to-you-apologise-might-be-an-inconvenience-for-others...
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Re: Venting thread

Post by mèþru »

Risla wrote:I wish someone would give me a chance but it's just clear that there is nobody willing to put up with the stupid social blunders of a 27-year-old loser who never even had a chance to learn how to interact with other people
I'm willing. You can PM me or email me whenever you want (although I won't be able to respond to messages for anywhere between microseconds to days).
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Venting thread

Post by mèþru »

Salmoneus wrote:this actually is easier to implement if you DO have low self-esteem!
Can personally attest that this is not necessarily true.

And Imralu is apparently still my parallel Aussie twin judging from last post.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Venting thread

Post by finlay »

Risla wrote:I'm incredibly alone and I'm drowning in it.

I don't know how much of this people here are aware of, but I was emotionally abused, neglected, and profoundly isolated as a child. I was "homeschooled," which in my case meant that I was locked in a house my entire childhood and never provided a basic education or any social outlets. I've worked so, so hard to try to pick up the pieces and make an actual life for myself, but it's such an incredibly uphill battle right now. I have absolutely zero social support and I so desperately need it. I'm pretty certain that the people I talk to the most are convenience store clerks. No friends, incredibly toxic family. I don't think people who actually have functional families can even understand this level of sheer isolation.

I just don't see any ways forward. I just fundamentally don't seem to understand other human beings and how they connect with each other. I wish someone would give me a chance but it's just clear that there is nobody willing to put up with the stupid social blunders of a 27-year-old loser who never even had a chance to learn how to interact with other people. So I continue. I am untouchable, impossible to care about, unlovable. I am so sick of trying.
hey, i consider you a friend, and you'd always be welcome in tokyo (or on the fb messenger). i definitely think it's hard to make friends in japan, it took me a long time to have anything resembling a social circle here. it's not only that you have a hard time connecting to people, it's also language barriers and this bullshit wall that japanese people build around themselves.

unfortunately in order to have friends you have to put yourself out there, though. maybe 'meetup' groups.

i think what sal said to imralu would fit here: if you act awkwardly or make a "blunder" people don't always notice, and if people do a certain thing you might ascribe some deep meaning to it that wasn't really there.

besides, 100% you're not "unlovable" or "impossible to care about". i really enjoyed that day we spent together last year, getting lost while you tell me the stories of your yarn group. it was fun.

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Re: Venting thread

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Risla wrote:I'm incredibly alone and I'm drowning in it.

I don't know how much of this people here are aware of, but I was emotionally abused, neglected, and profoundly isolated as a child. I was "homeschooled," which in my case meant that I was locked in a house my entire childhood and never provided a basic education or any social outlets. I've worked so, so hard to try to pick up the pieces and make an actual life for myself, but it's such an incredibly uphill battle right now. I have absolutely zero social support and I so desperately need it. I'm pretty certain that the people I talk to the most are convenience store clerks. No friends, incredibly toxic family. I don't think people who actually have functional families can even understand this level of sheer isolation.

I just don't see any ways forward. I just fundamentally don't seem to understand other human beings and how they connect with each other. I wish someone would give me a chance but it's just clear that there is nobody willing to put up with the stupid social blunders of a 27-year-old loser who never even had a chance to learn how to interact with other people. So I continue. I am untouchable, impossible to care about, unlovable. I am so sick of trying.
Ouch, that really is awful.

But you know, I could have said exactly the same about myself thirty years ago, except for the differences in our ages and childhoods; but here I still am. And plenty others on this board have been to similarly dark places in our lives and come out again. And it's good to know you're still here and able to talk. So that's a start. And plenty of us here are willing to listen, and offer what sympathy and support we can. So stick around! Nobody here is going to judge you for what's happened to you.

Two things which jump out at me are "don't see any ways forward" and "sick of trying". Perhaps you need to stand still and not try for a little while?
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Re: Venting thread

Post by alynnidalar »

This seems minor in light of recent posts, but my furnace is apparently broken (or at least I turned it on an hour and a half ago and the temperature in my apartment has maybe gone up one degree). I tried calling the emergency maintenance line, but only could leave a message, so... we'll see if anyone shows up to do anything about it tonight. :/

I do have a gas fireplace and it's not like it's that cold (about 65F (18C), because of the apartments I share walls with), but it's still a great deal chillier than I would like! And given that it's 17F (-8C) outside... well, I'd like to have a working furnace, is all!
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Vijay »

Ugh, I luckily do not have such problems, but that's still no fun. I remember when someone else I know (online) was freezing in their house because their furnace broke or something like that. They had to wait for days before the city (IIRC) finally sent someone over to fix it.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by malloc »

My bank canceled my debit card several weeks ago because they decided it was obsolete, and my new one doesn't have the same pattern. They just gave me a plain gray card, rather than the tie-dye one I had previously. So now I have to wait several years for the opportunity to get a card with the pattern I prefer. And yes, I realize all that sounds ridiculous and petty, but I hear people complaining about equally trivial stuff all the time.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by linguoboy »

malloc wrote:My bank canceled my debit card several weeks ago because they decided it was obsolete, and my new one doesn't have the same pattern. They just gave me a plain gray card, rather than the tie-dye one I had previously. So now I have to wait several years for the opportunity to get a card with the pattern I prefer.
Could you tie-dye it?

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Re: Venting thread

Post by alynnidalar »

(minor update on the furnace situation: they did end up coming out last night! ...and then worked on it for over two hours and still couldn't fix it. So they left me a space heater and came back today to replace a part. It's working now, so I'm quite happy it all worked out in the end. Still, I was pretty chilly last night until they gave me the space heater!!)
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by finlay »

malloc wrote:My bank canceled my debit card several weeks ago because they decided it was obsolete, and my new one doesn't have the same pattern. They just gave me a plain gray card, rather than the tie-dye one I had previously. So now I have to wait several years for the opportunity to get a card with the pattern I prefer. And yes, I realize all that sounds ridiculous and petty, but I hear people complaining about equally trivial stuff all the time.
ur still banned frm this thread m8, specially if you're gonna write passive-aggressive stuff like that

but while you're at it, go. and. ask. them. they might well just give you a new one.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by malloc »

finlay wrote:ur still banned frm this thread m8, specially if you're gonna write passive-aggressive stuff like that
Don't you think it's time to let old grudges die?

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Re: Venting thread

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alynnidalar wrote:minor update on the furnace situation
I'm going to write an update of my own earlier complaint, too: I finally did manage to contact the person who was supposed to interview me. It was kind of awkward but in a funny sort of way, so it's all good except that they told me they'd contact me about a video interview this week and they didn't.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Imralu »

Big hugs to Risla. I don't know a great deal about you but in text you come across as a good person who deserves good friends. And I'd echo what Finlay said about the language barrier. I came to Germany already a C2 in German and I've been here for four years but I still find I don't communicate as freely with everybody as I'd like and a lot of the time, that just makes me really tired. I don't notice it though until I start speaking English and can almost turn my brain off ... but the best is when it's an English speaker who also knows German so I can freely code switch because just sticking to English only is also hard.

In any case, while I don't struggle with social skills per se, I do struggle with being social too much or too little and I'm kind of on a knife-edge between peopled-out and lonely all the time, but I find the loneliness easier to deal with, I guess because I have control over being alone. I grew up without any privacy and I've longed to have a door of my very own that I can shut and keep everyone out, but then, as my counsellor says, I never had practice as a child learning to be on my own in a room, so I shut the door and even lock it when I'm feeling anxious, and then I feel lonely so it's not a satisfied solitude but a conflicted one. [enter the internet and distraction] Learning to deal with interpersonal interactions is hard - and not just in a social skills way but also in knowing where your boundaries are and what your needs are in relation to social interactions, conceptualising your social network, if you have one, and feeling at ease in it, seeing yourself as equal with everyone else. It's a complex thing to learn to be at ease with other people. This is why I think homeschooling should be outlawed except under exceptional circumstances (which have nothing to do with the parents' religion or the parents' freedoms and are only concerned with the child's welfare).

And thanks, once again, to everyone who responded to me, particularly Sal for his usual long and thoughtful analysis.
Salmoneus wrote:Of course, that's not exactly a long-term cure - because going around always assuming everyone else is a fucking moron who doesn't realise how wonderful you are is, if anything, a bigger problem than having a low self-esteem. But in the heat of the moment, it may be a useful counterbalance from time to time...
Ha, well, tricky, as my main role model shaping my life has been to be anything other than my father, and thinking anyone who doesn't see my worth is a moron is exactly my father, so that kind of drives another push downwards. But yeah, I get what you're saying. The thing that's really frustrating is that I tend to simultaneously know that I'm just as valuable as anyone else and that I'm not ... like, sometimes I feel like my brain is like some kind of excessively emotional quantum computer, simultaneously calculating all possibilities including those that negate each other. Any evidence that I'm likable tends to get filed in the parts of me that already know this and any evidence that I'm unlikable is filed with the parts where I already know this, so, like, I have to consciously make a case in my head a lot of the time to convince myself that people aren't somehow mistaken when they like me. All possible interpretations of how acceptable I am as a person seem to have evidence (well, up until a certain level ...) ... it's fucking tiring sometimes and I just wish I could turn it off whenever it gets out of hand. My medication goes a long way towards turning down the associated emotional overwhelmingness, but the over-analytical, self-critical thought patterns are still there a lot of the time and it's been increasing in the last couple of months.

My main method of checking and balancing my self-worth is of imagining a third person and projecting all of my qualities onto them and deciding if they're likable or whether they deserve bad stuff ... my brain is much kinder on third persons than myself, so it's one quick way I can see whether I'm just being really down on myself or realistically critical and, yeah, basically I'm really hard on myself and I'm making a concerted effort to regard myself as compassionately as I would others.
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Re: Venting thread

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Imralu wrote:Big hugs to Risla. I don't know a great deal about you but in text you come across as a good person who deserves good friends.
Amen.
I find the loneliness easier to deal with
Same, or at least I find solitude much easier to deal with. I'm used to being alone in my room with no one else in the vicinity but my parents and maybe my brother because I always was when I was growing up. There was no point in trying to socialize at that time because basically no one of my age in Austin liked me anyway. There was one time when someone finally did try to be nicer to me, I think in about fifth grade, which was a bit hard for me to take seriously because we'd known each other for years and he hadn't said anything in all that time.

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Re: Venting thread

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A certain someone is being just as unreasonable to me now as I was a few times to other people on the same forum (not this forum, of course). I would be more sympathetic if this certain someone had not also banned my ass and then completely failed to listen to my appeals (I don't have that sort of power over anyone in any space). They're hurling all these emotional accusations at me, so I said my last word. They responded to me after that. Beyond the words "Vijay, I have gone through the last couple of pages, and," I'm not going to read their response.

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Re: Venting thread

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Vijay wrote:A certain someone is being just as unreasonable to me now as I was a few times to other people on the same forum (not this forum, of course). I would be more sympathetic if this certain someone had not also banned my ass and then completely failed to listen to my appeals (I don't have that sort of power over anyone in any space). They're hurling all these emotional accusations at me, so I said my last word. They responded to me after that. Beyond the words "Vijay, I have gone through the last couple of pages, and," I'm not going to read their response.
For the best. It was pretty over the top.

I find that group very valuable when it comes to formulating my own approach to modding. It's pretty much a masterclass in What Not To Do.

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Re: Venting thread

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linguoboy wrote:For the best. It was pretty over the top.
Oh God, really? :-/ Thanks, though, because that reassures me that I really can safely ignore it. That post came like right before I went to sleep, too, ugh. I went to bed, then got up because it suddenly occurred to me that it might have said something important like "you will be banned if you" blah blah blah, so I searched that page of the thread for "mod," "ban," and "block" and only went to sleep once I'd found that none of those words were in it.

Meanwhile, this morning, I had to deal with some moron on Reddit, too, who was responding to a comment I wrote over thee weeks ago. ("How dare you suggest that some story from a ballad about some Muslim ruler threatening to rape some Hindu queen in the Middle Ages is not the exact same thing as ISIS raping over 200 Yazidi girls!"). Even that person was more tolerable.

Man, where did all the holiday cheer go? Did Donald Chump steal it or what? OMG IS HE THE GRINCH???

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Re: Venting thread

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Vijay wrote:Man, where did all the holiday cheer go? Did Donald Chump steal it or what? OMG IS HE THE GRINCH???
People get stressed out this close to Christmas. There was a dumpster fire in my librarian group today. Someone literally decided to stir up as much drama as they could in the last hour before they left work.

Normally I'd be stressed now, too, but I've decided not to go home for Christmas and not to buy anyone gifts and that's taken care of 90% of my anxiety.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Vijay »

linguoboy wrote:People get stressed out this close to Christmas. There was a dumpster fire in my librarian group today. Someone literally decided to stir up as much drama as they could in the last hour before they left work.
Oh dear, that's too bad. :(
Normally I'd be stressed now, too, but I've decided not to go home for Christmas and not to buy anyone gifts and that's taken care of 90% of my anxiety.
Yay! :)

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Re: Venting thread

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I've been talking with my boyfriend for the last couple of weeks about going somewhere together tonight - we'd been thinking of going to Hakone or Atami, resort areas a couple of hours to the south. He then saw fit to spring it on me late last night that he had to go back home tonight because his mum needs the car. (They've had to share for the last few months because his car suddenly broke down. He might be able to buy a new one for himself soon)

We ended up going to Yokohama Chinatown for dinner instead, which was actually quite nice, but it's so far from here. I fell asleep on the way there. and we did spend the morning cuddling, but all the motivation to do anything more had basically left me as soon as he told me he wouldn't be able to stay.

I don't really know how to describe how I feel now that he's left me at home on Christmas evening (well, it's after midnight so I might as well go to bed). It's like I'm so disappointed I feel sick as a result, having had the rug pulled out from under me.

I know I probably shouldn't attach such importance to one day, but it's always been an important time of the year when I get to see my family, and I'm also feeling homesick at the moment, having decided to stay in Japan over the holidays. My mum sent two big boxes of presents, some of them for my boyfriend too, and I misread the email she sent me the other day so missed my chance to call her at my grandma's house. I also got presents for my boyfriend, but he hasn't gotten me anything yet, was just very apologetic and embarrassed at not having had the time. But like, I found the time, somehow. He also didn't cotton on that he should have perhaps paid for my dinner (we split it at the time and I only mentioned it afterwards). I shouldn't punish him for not being psychic, but I feel like it's an obvious place where he could make quick amends.

anyway i can think of the positives, sure, like i can spend the time tomorrow cleaning my room, since i haven't had time to do that for about three weeks and the mess is piling up everywhere. it'll be fine i suppose.

I think this post makes it sound worse than it really is, and I feel like a drama queen for writing it, but facebook and tumblr aren't the right places for it. sorry my darlings.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by finlay »

another friend flaked out on me for new year. he was going to host a few of us at his house but for some reason decided nobody was going to come (he didn't make the effort to contact people about it), and told me at like 4pm this afternoon that he wasn't going to bother. great, thanks. I need to not stress myself out over this: it's just a day after all, but it's the second time in a week i've been let down.

fortunately a bit of quick texting and i found someone who's going out in shibuya or shinjuku tonight. Not ideal, it'll be crowded.

basically japan in the holidays is disappointing.

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Re: Venting thread

Post by Imralu »

One of my nice internet friends has died. I'm assuming suicide. :-(
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Re: Venting thread

Post by mèþru »

I wish I could give consolation, but anything I can think of sound to me as too hollow for something as significant as a death.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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