ZBB Census

[faiuwle]

Myself, I've been wondering about that bunched R thing. People make it sound like choking yourself with your own tongue while gargling.. or Arabic ʿayn/ghayn, but harder.

It sometimes seem that way, actually, minus the gargling. Mine actually seems to be farther back than my velars.

[Risla]

Yeah, mine seems to be some sort of pharyngealized uvular thingummy, although I actually have a retroflex after coronals.

[makvas]

That sounds like [ɻ]

Can't be, it's dorsal, not coronal.

[Tropylium]

Getting back on track… I don't think I've ever posted anything resembling a proper introduction during my what, half a dozen years here, so this comes a bit extended:

Twentysomething: yes
Student: yes
Gay: no
Bearded: yes
Lefty: no
From a small European country: yes
Asperger's: yes
Atheist: yes
Lefty: yes
Single and unhappy about it: yes

Germanic languages spoken: English, Swedish (badly), German (worse)
Romance languages spoken: none
Non-IE languages spoken: Finnish
Does not speak Ithkuil, but would like to: yes
Other languages not spoken but would like to: anything yet nothing in particular

Phonology sketches lying around: a few dozen
Grammar sketches lying around: half a dozen+
Conlangs in a remotely usable state: none
Tripping points in conlang design: not knowing shit about syntax, overlofty goals for naturalistic lexicon structuring
Visiting frequency on the ZBB: lurk for two weeks, post for two weeks, too short on time for four weeks
Visiting frequency on the Conlang-L: about the same
Other forums semi-lurked: more than I can count

Height: 181 cm
BMI: 19.8
Beverage of choice: tea
Transportation of choice: bike
Music genre of choice: the more synths, the better
CD collection size: 800-ish
Literary genre of choice: non-fiction
TV program of choice: Super Nintendo
Amount the W(h)orf question went over my head: 12.4 m

[Christopher Schröder]

Age: 22, but edging closer to 23
Gender: Male
Nationality: American
State: North Carolina
Occupation: Repairman (don't ask)
Sexual Orientation: Heterosexual
Status: Single (and happy with that)
Native Language: English
Secondary Languages: French (sort-of)
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Dutch, German
Religion: Agnostic
Politics: Of opinions selected by throwing darts and taking whatever they landed upon.
Laterality: Right
Height: ~6'2''
Weight: ~260 lbs.
Insistence on measuring everything in US Customary: Very high

[TomHChappell]

.

[finlay]

Lefty: no
Lefty: yes

Wait a minute... what? Couldn't you just follow the format that everyone else has followed? Because like then I wouldn't have to turn around and ask you what the hell you meant. FWIW, I've interpreted this as left in politics and right-handed, but purely based on the order of your answers so quite likely wrong.

Also, I'm going to upload the file on dropbox instead because it's easier for me.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/zbbcensus.xls

[finlay]

Height: ~6'2''
Weight: ~260 lbs.
Insistence on measuring everything in US Customary: Very high

yeah unfortunately i can't enter feet and inches into a field and make an average. also, we've not been measuring weight. i'm starting to think we should go back and start again...

[Travis B.]

In short, for what 'lects are "wore" and "war" merged?

Umm, all English varieties that I am aware of that are NORTH-FORCE-merged... including both General American and Received Pronunciation.

(Note that in both GA and RP, war and tar most certainly do not rhyme.)

I'm sure I have the "North/Force" merger, but "wore" and "war" are unmerged for me.

To me, the "wore"/"ware" merger would follow from the "ore"/"are" merger and the "force"/"farce" merger.
What 'lects of English have a "force"/"farce" merger?

Yes, the nuclear vowel in "war" has some perseveration from the "w" that isn't there in the nuclear vowels of "are" "bar" "car" "char" "far" "gar" "mar" "par" "tar" "yar". And therefore, even to me, the nuclear vowels of "wore" and "war" sound less different than those of "ore"/"are", "bore"/"bar", "fore"/"far", etc. But they still sound audibly different.

I can't help suspecting that people who grew up in a 'lect in which "wore" and "war" are merged, may not be able to notice that people from non-wore-war-merged 'lects are pronouncing them differently. If such a person relies on their own memory of their own personal experience, I'd think such a person would probably undercount the number of non-wore-war-merged speakers s/he had met.

Or maybe not. I also have nothing to go on except my own personal experience.

Okay, the most likely explanation of what you have going on here is that you are NORTH-FORCE-unmerged, and that you have seemingly assigned Whorf and Worf to having the FORCE vowel rather than the NORTH vowel.

About all of the above, for a simple lesson in English diachronic linguistics, as applies to southeastern English English and vast majority of North American English varieties in a rather broad fashion...

Early New English (ENE) /war/ and /ʍar/ became /wɔː(r)/ and, if not Wales-whales-merged, /ʍɔː(r)/ respectively, and hence having NORTH /ɔː(r)/ while ENE /ar/ otherwise became START /ɑː(r)/.

In comparison, FORCE is /oː(r)/ when not merged with NORTH /ɔː(r)/, where then the merged vowel is canonically /ɔː(r)/.

For the record, wore is a FORCE /oː(r)/ word (as are practically al the -ore words you mentioned), war is a NORTH /ɔː(r)/ word (as is or), while are is a START /ɑː(r)/ word (as are practically all the -ar words you mentioned other than war).

[finlay]

In comparison, FORCE is /oː(r)/ when not merged with NORTH /ɔː(r)/, where then the merged vowel is canonically /ɔː(r)/.

It would be less confusing if you took those (r)s out, because it's never /o:/ in a non-rhotic dialect. Non-rhotics who don't have the merger (v. conservative RP, pretty much) have /ɔə/ vs /ɔ:/.

Plus as I said before, I sporadically have the merger, but if I do, it would be /ɔr/ → /or/ but never /or/ → /ɔr/. That is, NORTH words don't sound wrong if I pronounce them /or/ but FORCE words sound wrong if I pronounce them with /ɔr/. So the way you've divided it is even more confusing. There's a chance that mine are more like [ɔr] and [ɒr] instead of [or] and [ɔr], but then /ɔr/ is definitely distinct from /ar/, which is usually [ɑr], so I don't think that's quite right (nb because SOME CUNT will point it out: [r] is defined very loosely here and isn't a trill).

[tezcatlip0ca]

Age: 14
Gender: Male
Nationality: Mexican
State/Province/Other Subdivision: Sonora
Occupation: Student
Sexual Orientation: Presexual
Status: Single
Native Language: Spanish, English from age 2.5 (does that count as native?)
Secondary Languages: none
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Mezzofanti squared
Religion: Non-religious Catholic
Politics: None
Handedness: Right
Who Would Win in a Fist Fight Between Michael Dorn and a Zombie Benjamin Whorf?: Osör Ruzheon

[Nesescosac]

Age: 15
Gender: Female
Nationality: American
State/Province/Other Subdivision: Texas
Occupation: Student
Sexual Orientation: Lesbian
Status: In a relationship
Native Language: English, Bengali
Secondary Languages: (in decreasing fluency) Latin, German, French, Finnish, Mandarin
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Arabic, Russian, Farsi, Lushootseed, Navajo, other stuff
Religion: Zoroastrian
Politics: ¡!
Handedness: Left
Who Would Win in a Fist Fight Between Michael Dorn and a Zombie Benjamin Whorf?: Dorn.

[Travis B.]

In comparison, FORCE is /oː(r)/ when not merged with NORTH /ɔː(r)/, where then the merged vowel is canonically /ɔː(r)/.

It would be less confusing if you took those (r)s out, because it's never /o:/ in a non-rhotic dialect. Non-rhotics who don't have the merger (v. conservative RP, pretty much) have /ɔə/ vs /ɔ:/.

Plus as I said before, I sporadically have the merger, but if I do, it would be /ɔr/ → /or/ but never /or/ → /ɔr/. That is, NORTH words don't sound wrong if I pronounce them /or/ but FORCE words sound wrong if I pronounce them with /ɔr/. So the way you've divided it is even more confusing. There's a chance that mine are more like [ɔr] and [ɒr] instead of [or] and [ɔr], but then /ɔr/ is definitely distinct from /ar/, which is usually [ɑr], so I don't think that's quite right (nb because SOME CUNT will point it out: [r] is defined very loosely here and isn't a trill).

Well, yes, the canonical transcriptions I provided there are highly biased towards a North American English point of view, but they are also motivated by that, historically, FORCE indeed had /oːr/ (including in ENE, from LME /ɔːr/) while NORTH had /ɔːr/ (ENE /ɔr/, maybe also some cases of ENE /ɔːr/ from LME /au̯r/?).

[Torco]

Religion: Zoroastrian

don't you have to get like a special invitation, or have a zoroastrian mum, to get in that club ?

[sirred]

I had a neighbor who at least nominally converted to Zoroastrianism in high school. His mother may as well have been a model for Ricky's mom from Better Off Dead, foreign exchange student and everything. I don't think there's a corrolation there.

[Nesescosac]

The Iranian Zoroastrians will let you in.

[Imralu]

Age: 27
Gender: Male
Nationality: Australian
Occupation: ESL teacher
Status: In a relationship
Native Language: English
Secondary Languages: Varying degrees: German (near-native, with disappearing vocabulary), Auslan, Swedish, Esperanto, French, Turkish, Spanish, Tok Pisin, Finnish (a few misremembered words with decent pronunciation and grammatical framework still intact)
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Everything, but notably International Sign, Maori and Hebrew
Religion: None. I saw a guy preaching at a bin tonight.
Politics: Leftwards
Handedness: Right
Height: 190cm or about 6'3"
Shoe size: 12-14UK-Au, 47-49Eu, or 13-15 American, depending on width.
Blood type: A+
Time since last beer: Many years. I've really been drinking rum since I started again.
Jokes told in last 24 hours: Half of one. I stopped when the sneers began.
Favourite sports: rugby, AFL, UFC, MMA <- for the players. The only thing I will actually watch for the sport is luge. Wheee!
Preferred Non-Fossil energy source: wind energy, just because I think turbines look cool
Nipple Piercing: no thanks
Who Would Win in a Fist Fight Between Michael Dorn and a Zombie Benjamin Whorf? There are no winners when violence is involved.
Nuclear energy: Yes, but with safety mechanisms, obviously.
Food: Thai, Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese ...
Weather: Favourite: deeply overcast

Twentysomething: yes
Student: yes (well, sort of … evening class and having some issues with the institution ... may get a refund)
Gay: yes
Bearded: yes
Lefty: no
From a small European country: no ... but what constitutes a large European country?
Asperger's: no, but it’s in my family
Atheist: yes
Single and unhappy about it: no, but was for a long time


Furthermore:

In all 'lects of English with which I am familiar the nuclear vowel of "Whorf" would match that of "wore" while the nuclear vowel of "wharf" would match that of "war". "Whorf" differs from "wharf" as "wore" differs from "war".

Those are all the same for me.
To an Australian person, this just looks like gibberish. I wasn’t even aware that anyone pronounces the vowels in north and force differently. Certainly not down here in the antipodes.

After <w>, <a> and <ar> are generally pronounced as <o> and <or>, so there are no words with [waː] in my dialect, and very few with [wæ].

Worf, whorf, wharf [woːf] (although the former two may be [wɜːf] for all I know, like "worth", "word", "worse" etc)
War, wore [woː]
Warn, worn [woːn]
Shore, sure, Shaw [ʃoː]
Tore [toː]
Tar, ta [taː]
Core, caw [koː]
Car [kaː]
More, Moor [moː]
Mar, ma [maː]
Poor, pour, paw, pore [poː]
Pours, paws, pores, pause [poːz]
Par, pa [paː]
Yore, your, yaw [joː]
Yar (What? As in the pirate sound?) [jaːrːːːːːːːː]
For, fore, four [foː]
Far, fa [faː]
Force [foːs]
Farce [faːs]
North [noːθ]
Marry [mæri]
Merry [meri]
Mary [meːri]
Cot [kɔt]
Caught, Court [koːt]
Boxer [ˈbɔksə] ~ [ˈbɔksa] (word-final schwa may be lowered somewhere in the direction of [a] in strong accents)
Boxers, boxes [ˈbɔksəz]
Water [ˈwoːɾə] ~ [ˈwoːɾa] (<t> may be pronounced as [t] in careful, emphatic speech)

[Herra Ratatoskr]

Age: 27 (and 1 week, as of this posting)
Gender: Male
Nationalities: American & Australian
State: Missouri
Occupation: Gainlessly Unemployed
Sexual Orientation: Heterosexual (in theory, if not yet in practice)
Status: Single (and have come to terms with it)
Native Language: English
Secondary Languages: German, Spanish, some Anglo-Saxon
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Dutch, Frisian, Swedish, Farsi, Finnish
Religion: Deist in theology, Quaker in religious expression
Politics: Progressive, probably Social Democrat if I lived in a country where that would mean anything
Laterality: Right
Height: 6'1'' / 185 cm
Weight: 230 lbs / 1020 N
Mass: 7.15 slugs / 105 kg
Worf vs Whorf?: Everyone, because it would be awesome.
Preferred Non-Fossil Energy Source: Thorium Nuclear

[finlay]

Furthermore:

In all 'lects of English with which I am familiar the nuclear vowel of "Whorf" would match that of "wore" while the nuclear vowel of "wharf" would match that of "war". "Whorf" differs from "wharf" as "wore" differs from "war".

Those are all the same for me.
To an Australian person, this just looks like gibberish. I wasn’t even aware that anyone pronounces the vowels in north and force differently. Certainly not down here in the antipodes.

Not having the merger is restricted to very conservative RP, Scotland, Ireland, and isolated parts of America (and probably other parts of England too but I'm not sure). St Louis, for instance, is noted for not having the merger. It's just, I think Tom isn't really talking about the north-force merger – and I do think it's hypercorrection whatever it is.

(I should note here that I have war, Whorf and wharf (and Worf) as part of the NORTH set, and wore as part of the FORCE set, so I disagree on the count that the vowels of Whorf and wharf differ. The sets aren't rigidly defined, of course, but what Tom's said later implies that he has some kind of /ar/ in "war", but this doesn't really make sense and has no precedent. So I dunno)

[----]

Age: 15
Gender: Male
Nationality: American
State/Province/Other Subdivision: Georgia
Occupation: Student
Sexual Orientation: Bisexual
Status: Single
Native Language: English
Secondary Languages: German, Hungarian sort of
Languages I Want to Learn but Don't Have the Time: Georgian, oh gosh
Religion: Unitarian Universalist
Politics: I honestly know nothing about politics, I couldn't tell you
Handedness: Right
Who Would Win in a Fist Fight Between Michael Dorn and a Zombie Benjamin Whorf?: Gotta go with Dorn unless they're like I Am Legend zombies.

[Pthagnar]

Religion: Unitarian Universalist
Politics: I honestly know nothing about politics, I couldn't tell you

did you not get these two the wrong way round?

[Imralu]

Not having the merger is restricted to very conservative RP, Scotland, Ireland, and isolated parts of America (and probably other parts of England too but I'm not sure). St Louis, for instance, is noted for not having the merger. It's just, I think Tom isn't really talking about the north-force merger – and I do think it's hypercorrection whatever it is.

If it's hypercorrection, the whole situation is confused by the BOTHER-FATHER merger. Hypercorrecting it to pronounce the <ar> like <ar> in just about every other word would make it [wa:] in my lect but for rhotic speakrers with the BOTHER-FATHER merger, I wouldn't necessarily recognise it as an <ar> sound (RP /ɑː/ + /r/) but possibly as a short O sound (RP /ɒ/) followed by /r/, so I probably wouldn't pick up on it as a hypercorrection.

And yes, I did notice one of my Irish colleagues struggling with the RP phonemics in our text books because it didn't seem to match her pronunciation. She said some things didn't rhyme that I had assumed rhymed in every dialect. There was something with <or> in it that didn't rhyme with something else. The only thing I struggle with is knowing which unstressed vowels are supposed to have /ɪ/ and which are supposed to have /ə/. RP has some funny (from my perspective) things like "wanted" /ˈwɒntɪd/ and "example" /ɪgˈzæmpəl/ where I'd say [ˈwɔn(t)əd] and either [egˈzæmpəl] or [əgˈzæmpəl]. Unstressed syllables here tend to turn into a schwa, or /i/ here, but never /ɪ/. I assumed, from the spelling, that "cousin" in RP was /ˈkʌzɪn/ but apparently it's /ˈkʌzən/. I have to check these things in a dictionary if I want to teach anyone RP. Thankfully most of my students pronounce it as /kɔdʒɯn/ or /kosin/ anyway so I have greater problems to worry about.

[The Count]

... some sort of pharyngealized uvular thingummy...

Gotta love those terms. Sounds like a lubricant....

[Z500]

Age: 14
Sexual Orientation: Presexual

if you haven't had any sexual feelings by now, you're probably asexual

[Pthagnar]

Age: 14
Sexual Orientation: Presexual

if you haven't had any sexual feelings by now, you're probably asexual

what a quaint idea