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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:47 am 
Lebom
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Pthug wrote:
i agree, labels from other people are way better:

Code:
+------+
| TORY |
| BOY  |
+------+


I am in favour of legal prostitution, legalising and/or decriminalising all drugs, giving gay people the right to get married, giving equal adoption rights to gay couples... DEFINITELY a TORY BOY

:p ;~D

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:50 am 
Avisaru
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it does sound rather 19th century, yes


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:53 am 
Lebom
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Pthug wrote:
it does sound rather 19th century, yes


Touche.

Neo-classical Liberal, then

*tongue-in-cheek*

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:55 am 
Avisaru
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that still sounds tory

why try to hide it


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:58 am 
Smeric
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Astraios wrote:
ol bofosh wrote:
There was no Nossex though.
Instead of that we have Norfuck.

norfuck? really?
man, you guys have the best names. including Cockney, Cumming street, Cockfoster, Broadbottom...
aw, google yielded this, endless fun!

Quote:
UKIP describes itself as a mix of Libertarian/Classical Liberal mixed with Neo-Con.

What does classical liberal have to do with libertarianism? that's like saying one is a mix of marxist-leninist and whig with some neoliberalism for good measure.

Quote:
Genuinely, I like better NOT labelling myself, and instead I just give you my views on specific issues.

and that's why you answered the question of political position with the name of a party?

Quote:
I am in favour of legal prostitution, legalising and/or decriminalising all drugs, giving gay people the right to get married, giving equal adoption rights to gay couples... DEFINITELY a TORY BOY

I don't think any of those are remotely aligned with the UKIP... might be wrong, tho, especially since I know nothing about the rank-and-file. I mean I've done some work with a party I disagree with on a few issues, but is UKIP into personal freedoms and civil rights? I thought their entire thing was "get them europpeans and the euro and them pakis and muslims and their sharia the fuck out of my country".

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:47 am 
Lebom
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I made a long post with quotes and everything... and it got deleted!!!

Okay Torco...

Quick summary:

UKIP believes in grants not student loans, taking people earning below minimum wage of wage out of tax altogether, opposing the European Arrest Warrant scheme, giving people the power to call binding referendums on issue (5% of population) and also remove misbehaving MPs. And so on.

Last General Election Manifesto:
http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPmanifesto1304a.pdf
http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-polici ... -stand-for

Also, check out GERARD BATTEN's (UKIP MEP) civil liberties stuff including on YouTube.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:51 am 
Avisaru
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Bryan wrote:
taking people earning below minimum wage of wage out of tax altogether
oh that *is* clever. people already hate people on benefits [you know, because they take and take and don't give anything back in taxes] -- what better way to improve this wonderful state of affairs by extending this problem to the working poor!


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:58 am 
Lebom
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Pthug wrote:
Bryan wrote:
taking people earning below minimum wage of wage out of tax altogether
oh that *is* clever. people already hate people on benefits [you know, because they take and take and don't give anything back in taxes] -- what better way to improve this wonderful state of affairs by extending this problem to the working poor!


Personally I think that taking more poor people out of tax than is already the case is a good idea. Feel free to disagree. But being on benefits and raising the tax threshold are not the same thing, Pthug.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:05 am 
Avisaru
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they are the same thing insofar as it creates a class of people who take government money but do not give even a token "fair share" in return. Regardless of whether or not I think this is a bad thing [I do not] this *would* lead to definite consequences which cannot be dismissed as "well, we have different opinions so let's shake hands and agree to disagree".

as a reactionary, you should be looking to America for clues, and in doing so you will notice the "We are the 53%" response to the "We are the 99%" thing. This is over exactly the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:36 am 
Smeric
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Pthug wrote:
Bryan wrote:
taking people earning below minimum wage of wage out of tax altogether
oh that *is* clever. people already hate people on benefits [you know, because they take and take and don't give anything back in taxes] -- what better way to improve this wonderful state of affairs by extending this problem to the working poor!

its more efficient that taxing them and then taking tax money and giving some of it back to them, and then taxing them a bit of the tax money they're given, and then giving them a bit of that tax money, and then.. the problem is not that people hate people on benefits, or poor people, the problem is that there's people who need to be on benefits or who end up being dirt poor. That being said, yes, it might cause some outcry with the protestant jobmonks of the 53%... fuck, man, only in protestant america... victims claiming to be heroes. look at me, I'm so exploited I don't sleep in order to make others billionaires, and I thank and admire them billionaires. look at what a hero I am. I mean someone claiming 'i work 100 hours a week, look at me, I'm so awesome'. jeez, man. poor bastards.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:38 am 
Sumerul
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Torco wrote:
norfuck? really?
No, Norfolk, but it's pronounced the same.


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:41 am 
Avisaru
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Not only in protestant america. wherever you find tories. which seems to be everywhere.

but of course people hating the poor a problem. what the fuck is wrong with you? there are ALWAYS going to be the poor and those who cannot work! call *that* the problem and ignore the "being an awful tory" problem and you have a situation where you can go on your stupid liberal lotos-eating street demos forever.

whenever tories say nice things is when i trust them least. the cognitive dissonance is usually resolved by asking "pretend you are secure enough that you will never ever be in the position to be the beneficiary of this. what's in it for *you*?"


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:04 am 
Smeric
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Quote:
Not only in protestant america. wherever you find tories. which seems to be everywhere.

oh, yes, *some* of the "I'm rich because I work hard and the poor are poor because they're lazy" meme can be observed everywhere, people need to justify their position somehow. However, what I suspect might be more specifically american is the "I work like a madman and I'm still poor, long live the system!" meme.

Quote:
No, Norfolk, but it's pronounced the same.

and is it pronounced 'no fuck' in non-rhotic accents ?

Quote:
but of course people hating the poor a problem. what the fuck is wrong with you? there are ALWAYS going to be the poor and those who cannot work! call *that* the problem and ignore the "being an awful tory" problem and you have a situation where you can go on your stupid liberal lotos-eating street demos forever.

Sure its a problem, its a serious problem too, but its not the problem, as in, if some people, group A, are down in the mud, and there's group B, people will hate them viciously because you help them out some, then the problem is not you helping them out some, but the ashen, shrivelled up little hole that's in the place group B's collective heart ought to be, to put it poetically.

Quote:
whenever tories say nice things is when i trust them least. the cognitive dissonance is usually resolved by asking "pretend you are secure enough that you will never ever be in the position to be the beneficiary of this. what's in it for *you*?"

It's wonderfully paradoxical how most conservatives are also nominally Christians. again, Weber explains it wonderfully

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:09 am 
Lebom
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Torco: agreed.

Plus, check out the UKIP sheezy I linked you to.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:31 am 
Smeric
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checking it out.

yup, it still looks like neocons to me: let's stop spending, kill public education, lets lower taxation, flat taxes [which is criminal, btw], respect for inheritance, get them foreigners outta my country, lets put more people in jail for more time, lets spend a fuckton of money on the military and lower taxes even if we hate debt, 'freedom' of teaching for teachers [criminal], let's allow teachers to beat students, climate change denial, monoculturalism, rhetoric about the 'fabric of british life [the fuck is that mean?]... but there's keynesianism in there too? that's odd.

I like their healthcare policy, their support for pubs, and the whole locally elected authorities thing seems nice, even if it ends up being rather reactionary on the whole.

so, my evaluation of ukip

pro: pubs, healthcare, keynesianism
cons: neocons, nationalism, enforcing neoliberalism, are crazy republicans, flat taxes... I mean *flat rate taxes*, cheeses.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:42 am 
Lebom
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Meh. :P ;)

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:50 am 
Smeric
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really? militarism, flat tax, corporal punishment in schools, privatizing education, you down with that bro ?

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:55 am 
Lebom
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Torco wrote:
really? militarism, flat tax, corporal punishment in schools, privatizing education, you down with that bro ?


Define "militarism". The primary function of the state is to secure an environment in which the people may exercise their freedoms as they choose and live unmolested, not in fear, and pursue happiness; none of this is possible without numerous things including but not limited to a well-equiped armed forces.
That is what UKIP is about. NOT about arming us up to invade other nations: UKIP was prominently against the Iraq and Afghan wars, for example.

Flat tax: I'm not an economist. I'm more pragmatic than some. I would rather take the poorest out of tax altogether and then progressively raise the tax to about 40% for the highest earners.

I'm all in favour of corporal punishment in schools.

Privatising education is not really what UKIP is about. And I don't support that either.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:01 pm 
Smeric
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militarism, in this context, means being one of the most powerful military powers of the world around some of the most peaceful countries ever and still wanting to buy ALL the tanks [and missiles and battleships and stuff]

flat taxes are horrible. taking 30% of the wages of a poor dude is bleeding him dry for a very small amount of money, and therefore a small benefit to the state, just to make the rich guy feel like he's being treated fairly.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:13 pm 
Avisaru
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that is what makes it so clever. you simultaneously say "it is important everybody pays a fair share of their taxes, where fairness means erring on the side of poor people paying more" and THEN also go "oh by the way, that doesn't include these people, i mean look at them! *genteel sneer* they get *everything* for free, lucky duckies! okay enjoy everyone and play nice!"


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:22 pm 
Lebom
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The poorest wouldn't pay any tax in the UKIP system. But in any case, in my system those on minimum wage would pay very little tax, and it would progressively go up to around 100,000 earners who would pay around 40%

I think UKIP's policy on tax is pretty good. But I don't agree with it 100%.

DISCLAIMER: supporting a party doesn't mean you agree 100%.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:39 pm 
Sumerul
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Torco wrote:
and is it pronounced 'no fuck' in non-rhotic accents ?
... No. xD You fail vowels. /n@u/, /nO:f@k/


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:44 pm 
Smeric
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Astraios wrote:
Torco wrote:
and is it pronounced 'no fuck' in non-rhotic accents ?
... No. xD You fail vowels. /n@u/, /nO:f@k/

Image
Bryan wrote:
The poorest wouldn't pay any tax in the UKIP system. But in any case, in my system those on minimum wage would pay very little tax, and it would progressively go up to around 100,000 earners who would pay around 40%

I think UKIP's policy on tax is pretty good. But I don't agree with it 100%.

DISCLAIMER: supporting a party doesn't mean you agree 100%.


Of course not, but one must have standards: just because I endorse the idea of, say, nationalizing healthcare, education and transportation in Chile, it doesn't mean I'll side with a hypothetical party that, promising to do so, also has an agenda of making anal sex, or riding a bike without a permit, an offense punishable with jail.

As for the poorest, they're not the only ones who have problems. the poorest is 11kilopounds per year or below, right? that's like 1,4kilousd per month. yet the UK is 32% more expensive than the US, which isn't cheap to begin with, so taking the US as a reference, that's roughly making a thousand dollars a month, or using Chile as a reference, that's like making 380000 pesos per month. if you take 300 dollars from a yank making a thousand per month, you seriously hurt him financially, even though he's not 'of the poorest of the poor'. Similarly, taking 30% off the chilean dude who's making 380 lucas per month you leave him with 260 lucas. neither of those cases are misery, but it's still a pretty heavy punch in the nuts, just to take 300 clams into the treasury.

By comparison, if you take a 33% off a dude who makes 10kusd per month, as opposed to 30%, you make the same amount of money, and it doesn't hurt him. If you take a 34% off a dude who makes 100kusd per month, as opposed to 33%, you make more than three times as much, and it hurts him even less.

sorry for using usd, but I don't really think in pounds. still, 11e3 pounds yearly is not a lot of money, considering that your own BBC points out that in order to achieve a minimum standard of living, you need to make 13e3 of the things.

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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:47 pm 
Avisaru
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in english, we say £11,000


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 Post subject: Re: ZBB Census
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:04 pm 
Smeric
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Pthug wrote:
in english, we say £11,000

is that central to the 'fabric of britishness'?
stop oppressing me

plus I thought in English you said English.

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