The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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Kereb
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Kereb »

and did you go for tests

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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yes, and none of them were chill and Just Common Sense.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Kereb »

your tests were a reaction to a scare, then

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

no, they were a reaction to 'well, everyone says you're supposed to get tested, and they're throwing money at this like i'm in some fucking african plague camp so why not'.

Although it *was* a reaction to a scare [of course because HIV IS SCARY] -- but not a scare of nonspecific "probabilities", but about specific *men*. Pushing the fear and loathing out into "probability", "just because" and "just a check" [...for what?] is a tempting thing to do, and I sympathise with people who do it, but not something I can, with intellectual integrity, promote in my own mind, and especially not to others.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Kereb »

Pthagnar wrote:but not a scare of nonspecific "probabilities", but about specific *men*.
yeah that would be the kind of incident i'm talking about
Pthagnar wrote:Pushing the fear and loathing out into "probability", "just because" and "just a check" [...for what?] is a tempting thing to do, and I sympathise with people who do it, but not something I can, with intellectual integrity, promote in my own mind, and especially not to others.
well assuming you're having no success with promoting "fuck fewer people", why then can you not promote "get yourself checked regular if that's how you're going to be"
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

fuck you, i'm occupy faggotry, i don't need to sign off on a list of demands written up by somebody else trying to help.

i am promoting what i am promoting: namely: fight anybody who is trying to pull the wool over your eyes by talking about venereal disease like it's just something that happens, that you're just getting tested because it's what the cool kids do, or because it's necessary to get checked for No Reason Really. Anything to avoid thinking that what you're actually getting tested for are some politically incorrect consequences from fucking all those strange men.

----

To clarify: there were no specific incidents with specific men, no sores, no little black skin cancers, no suspiciously large pillboxes, no anything [and gosh, look how you have to be aware of this shit!]. But at the same time there was a VERY REAL RISK and the men were VERY REAL MEN. And -- another thing here which worries me deeply -- alongside the apparently liberating nature of 'oh yeah look at me fuckin a man yeah this is it this is as real as it gets', there is a weird kind of bondage in having to strap a tight rubber thing onto your dick, of treating semen, once it comes out, like it belongs in a fucking pathology laboratory. Of knowing that even despite these precautions, there's still a very real and residual risk.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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Pthagnar wrote:fuck you, i'm occupy faggotry, i don't need to sign off on a list of demands written up by somebody else trying to help.
of for crying out loud will you stop trying to steer things towards a discussion of whether I think you're Toeing The Party Line enough -- you did that in the other thread too and I don't give a shit what legitness badges you have or lack, you're not talking to Eddy

Nobody has said that venereal disease is the result of anything but sex, or that getting checked regularly is a response to anything but being sexually active and thus at some (whatever size) risk. Kay?
But all of these:
Pthagnar wrote:certainly if you've got cause to think you've got HIV from it then, yeah, perhaps 'scandalous' isn't the exact word but it's not exactly just a matter of accidentally tripping up on your way to buy a pint of milk and grazing your hands
Pthagnar wrote:why else would you submit to an AIDS test if not to confirm or unconfirm a suspicion that you have AIDS? That is what it is *for*. And if, for some reason, you did not think you might have AIDS but did so for some other reason, then doing such a thing would not cause you any anxiety.
Pthagnar wrote:who said 50:50? but certainly Prob(fuck i have aids) is high enough for you to think it's worth getting a medical test. certainly higher than e.g. Prob(fuck i have giardiasis)?
Pthagnar wrote:you've contracted a nontrivial probability of HIV. That's pretty terrible.
come off like you're trying to make it out like Astraios went in for his test in response to something like what you describe: specific men with large pillboxes etc
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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I was trying to clarify that I believe the opposite of your last point in my previous post, but I failed. So I will assert it -- that I do not think Astraios, or me, or generally speaking lots of [and maybe most] homosexuals [or for that matter straight people, although who can speak for them] get AIDS tests *spurred on by specific cases* but because of a *general fear*.

I repeat: I do *not* think he has any *specific men* in mind. But there *are* actual men involved, and the only way he could have got HIV is through them. HIV is scary, and it is right to be scared by it. But the cause of ones fear is not that you accidentally drifted into a bad part of probability space, it is because of dangerous fucking. You cannot take into account, when deciding what to do, something that "just happens", but you *can* take into account something *specific* with a *very clear cause*. That's fucking science.

This is not the only time that I have seen this strategy of decoupling the unwanted thing, the thing that anti-homosexuals make homosexual intercourse into -- the bad consequences of homosexuality and promiscuity -- from the thing that homosexuals make it into -- joy and liberation through homosexuality and promiscuity. Everyone does this sort of thing, it is a universal cognitive bias of all political groups and all ideologies: I don't like it when queerbashers do it, and I don't like it when queers do it.

Decoupling "I did such and such and so I fear I have got AIDS from it" into "I did such and such" and "I fear I have got AIDS" is to go fey [in multiple senses of the word], purposefully making yourself think [and so behave] irrationally, compromising your arguments, leaving you open to huge holes you have torn yourself in your own ideology, handing the missing pieces of the puzzle over to your enemies and learning to make yourself a helpless victim: *that's* the homosexual party line. fuck the party! fuck that! fuck all that!

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Kereb »

well all right he might be WRONG to decouple cause and consequence but that was no good reason for people (before you joined, even) being zeebishly unable to receive the information that he was putting out there: "no, I don't think I might have just gotten HIV".
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

oh, then by 'people' you mean shm jay. shm jay is a stupid fuck who makes a moron of himself in the exact same way i describe except in the anti-homosexualist cause, and he does it terribly even by their standards. acting like a fey little child in the worst way.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

Pthug wrote:i am promoting what i am promoting: namely: fight anybody who is trying to pull the wool over your eyes by talking about venereal disease like it's just something that happens, that you're just getting tested because it's what the cool kids do, or because it's necessary to get checked for No Reason Really. Anything to avoid thinking that what you're actually getting tested for are some politically incorrect consequences from fucking all those strange men.
but es tee dees, like every other dee, however whatever its tee mechanism is, *are* something that just happens to people <who are sexually active, the 'cool kids' as is were> and it *is* a good idea to get checked for No Reason Really <other than you fuck some people sometimes>. What else are they, but something that just happens, Punishment From the Lord?

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

they happen to you when you fuck diseased people. that is not 'just happening'.you do something: there is a consequence.. if you don't fuck diseased people, you can't catch disease. "fucking people sometimes" is not the cause and is exactly the sort of chopped up half-proposition i was talking about.

you show how easy it is to slip into this disordered and fey way of speaking. you 'ironically' draw an equivalence between sexually active people [like that is also a relevant thing and not an overgeneralisation, the most general error of which is that it turns your thinking away from concrete good and bad acts [which , yes, invite judgement which may or may not be divine] and towards a ~lifestyle choice~ and to Being a Kind of Person] and "cool kids" and 'ironically' argue based on it.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

Well yeah, in theory, but practically its really hard to know a priory who is diseased and who isn't: *everyone* who's fucked a few people is connected to the fuckweb [that web in which everyone has indirectly fucked hundres of thousands of people given enough degrees of separation] is at risk of being unknowingly infected, and you can't know a priory either the position of a person in that web or their health status. Thus, from a pragmatic view you need to look at it stochastically because you never really know, even if you only fuck one person <because that person can fuck someone and not tell you <like an affaire> and that means that, as far as you can reasonably know, fucking people means a nonzero probability of catching something. that chance being modified by all the things, but since your info is always imperfect you're burdained by that nonzero chance and thus its kind of smart, again, to get tested just because. <since its convenient and cheap... i mean here in the third world its just 4 bucks, some person juice, a signature and 25 minutes, surely its similarly easy in the euroworld>

i mean, if you are a kind of person <the kind who fucks a few people every X time> and you fuck people who are in turn too active sexually, that's reason enough to get tested every now and then.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

congratulations, torco, for continuing to provide a living example of craven left-liberalism, covering yourself itself in abstractions so as to ever be safe from having to notice that the forest is full of trees. you do your party a great service.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

thank you, father. I wish god only sent diseases to people who deserve them, but alas, he sometimes doesn't. isn't that why you guys do it with very little children?

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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...fascists?

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

nah, much worse, those dirty libertines. 1 in 4 people, more or less, are those dirty libertines who are diseased people whom god judges you of fucking and gives you STDs.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

oh, then i guess i fall into the class of "english people", and so the pederasty-rich category you are surely referring to is "british entertainers famed for their libertinism who who are still being regularly discovered to have been fucking children on the sly for the past few decades under the quite possibly willfully blind eyes of the media establishment"

well, happily i have a low opinion of them anyway, and don't find it particularly surprising. not sure why it's relevant, but then "nuh uh, look over there -- those people did a thing!" is an even better tree-avoidance tactic than overgeneralising

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

Not englishmen, nor entretainers, but clerics <i guess they are entretainers, in a way... performers anyway> whom share with you that celibacy or monogamy are somehow defaults and that only filthy sinners should test themselves for stds: thus father.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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you want to talk about defaults? i have been emphasising nothing more than the importance of informed choice and how you should beware the many people, victims of cognitive biases most likely, who spread disinformation preventing you from taking a good look at what you're actually doing and thinking. And this, I have said, is found everywhere. But in particular, among homosexuals, the main voice heard and repeated is that of promiscuity. So that's why I'm talking about that. I assume that from your sarcasm you already know about the weaknesses, hypocrisies and fantasies of the preachers of chastity, so why retread over them?

Even less have I said ANYWHERE "everything else being the same, fewer people should be tested for STDs". For God's sake, if you think you may have contracted one, then YES, GO AND GET ONE. Kereb brought up something similar before, where apparently I was failing to promote "get yourself checked regular if that's how you're going to be" vigorously enough; I'm still not sure why he said that, but he has more sense than you, of course, because you, you overeducated schmuck who should stick to barking slogans out loud rather than hiding them in five dollar mathematics words, you come out and say 'hurr, you think people getting tested is a bad idea! kiddie fucker! kiddie fucker!'. fuck you, you fucking pinko cunt.

*You* are the one who is making dodgy assumptions, and assumptions of the sort that I am pointing out -- primarily that sexual promiscuity is how people Just Behave, that "a priori" you cannot expect to know whether or not somebody is carrying disease, or be expected to discover this fact before deciding whether or not getting your end wet with them is something you're going to do, that thinking about specific cases is not profitable because the default ["looking at it stochastically", apparently] is good enough, and this is taken, without comment, to the conclusion that you should essentially consider everybody to be fucking so much and so indiscriminately that you can look at crude probabilistic measures like "1 in 4 people had an STI" and think 'well, that's it! better keep on fuckin''.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Torco »

its not that you're saying people getting tested is a bad idea or that you're not promoting it enogh, kiddie fucker. Its that a) you don't seem to understand that preventive medicine and early screening are good things, they are for cancer, and for stds and for everything, whereas you insist that "if you think you have a disease get tested" as opposed to "get tested" but don't act like getting tested just because is a good idea because that's deluded and reinforces the hegemonic ideology of the Fag Party or something, b) what you call sexual promiscuity <and the reason i'm calling you a priest> is simply having sex outside a 100% monogamous marriage with someone who's never fucked anyone as since the threshold for you being part of the fuckweb isn't really that high and STDs not limited to the sexual lumpen but are, indeed, prevalent and c) this
i am promoting what i am promoting: namely: fight anybody who is trying to pull the wool over your eyes by talking about venereal disease like it's just something that happens, that you're just getting tested because it's what the cool kids do, or because it's necessary to get checked for No Reason Really. Anything to avoid thinking that what you're actually getting tested for are some politically incorrect consequences from fucking all those strange men.
this makes no sense:people are trying to fool you by saying the lie that venereal disease is something that happens to people who fuck instead of acknowledging the truth that people who fuck get venereal disease sometimes ?

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

Torco wrote: Its that a) you don't seem to understand that preventive medicine and early screening are good things...
stopped reading here. if you're not going to read what I write [and helpfully mark with capital letters] then why should I read what you write?

why should anybody, for that matter? do you?

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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The problem is, though, that one really has no way of knowing someone else's status with regard to having sex with other people, or who they happen to be having sex with. No matter how careful one may try to be personally, that cannot control for how careful the people one has had sex with are in having sex with other people, and so on and so forth. Even if one is in a supposedly monogamous marriage one really cannot stop one's partner from cheating on one, without one's knowledge. So hence one cannot really know someone else's likely status STD-wise, as much as one may wish to delude oneself into thinking that one can. As much as one may like to frame things in terms of "incidents", the matter is that if one is sexually active one has no real way of knowing whether those one is having sex with have STDs. In essence from a personal standpoint, as long as one is sexually active, it is necessary to see it as being stochastic in nature; to believe otherwise is merely self-delusion. Hence it is only prudent if one is sexually active to be regularly tested for them, even if one has no specific reason to believe that one has contracted them.

Now the question is why pthag is so vehemently against regular testing for STDs such as HIV...
Last edited by Travis B. on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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Travis B. wrote:Now the question is why pthag is so vehemently against regular testing for STDs such as HIV...
Jesus Christ.

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Re: The Contradictory Feelings Thread

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Hence it is only prudent if one is sexually active to be regularly tested for them, even if one has no specific reason to believe that one has contracted them.
But you give a specific reason:
Even if one is in a supposedly monogamous marriage one really cannot stop one's partner from cheating on one.
If you are married, and your wife assures you that she isn't sleeping around or you, controversially, trust your wife implicitly, then THERE is a reason you would get an STD test: the suspicion that your wife is being unfaithful! Going to get one in such a case is to say "Darling, I think you are getting some diseased cock on the side and not telling me". or else, you suspect YOU may be getting some diseased cock [or whatever] on the side and you want to know if you've fucked up, in which case she would also have good reason to be suspicious that you would get tested. Faithful married couples do not get STD tests. They are just not necessary. It is not part of those lists you see of "100 ways to live a happily married life": Tip 34: HOLD EACH OTHER in permanent suspicion by forcing each other to demonstrate that your bodily fluids are still pure every six months!

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