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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:55 am 
Visanom
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Oh, I thought this thread had already been pruned, so I PMed Zompist. Maybe someone here could also help?

Qwynegold wrote:
Hi! I'm working with SCA², and have come across a problem that I'm not sure if it's because of a bug, or if there's something that I'm just not seeing. Would you take a look at this please?

Categories
Code:
C=mnpbtdkɡqʷpfbvtsdzfvszxɣrlʋ̥ʋθðqβ̊βʍwtʃdʒhʲʝɫŋjɮ


Rewrite rules
Code:
<V_unstressed>|Ѵ
<V_stressed>|Ѷ
ɑ́|ắ
<P_voiced>|Ṕ
<P_unvoiced>|Ṗ
<A_unvoiced>|Ȧ
<A_voiced>|Ã
<F_voiced1>|Φ
<F_unvoiced1>|Ḟ
<bilabial>|B
pf|ȹ
bv|ȸ
ts|ʦ
dz|ʣ
<velar>|K
qʷ|ʠ
<alveolar1>|X
<guttural1>|Ⱪ
<V_unuvular>|Ṿ
<V_uvular>|Ṽ
ɒ̝|â
ɒ̝́|ấ
<uvular>|Q
<V_unrounded1>|Ɯ
<V_rounded1>|W
œ́|ő
ɞ́|ḗ
ɒ́|ǻ
<unlenited1>|DZ
<lenited1>|Θ
ʋ̥|ƒ
<labiodental1>|F
<bilabial1>|Ƀ
<labiovelar1>|Ẅ
<V_front1>|E
<V_back1>|O
β̊|ɸ
tʃ|ʧ
dʒ|ʤ
<O_voiced>|Õ
<O_unvoiced>|Ȯ
<C_unvoiced>|Ċ
ɛ́|ȅ
<V_front2>|Ε
<V_back2>|Ο
<V_unrounded2>|Ι
<V_rounded2>|Υ
ə́|ớ


Sound changes
Code:
ou/øy/_(C(C(C(C))))j
əu/øy/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ɑu/æy/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ɑo/æø/_(C(C(C(C))))j
u/y/_(C(C(C(C))))j
o/ø/_(C(C(C(C))))j
[ɑɒ]/æ/_(C(C(C(C))))j
óú/ǿý/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ə́ú/ǿý/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ɑ́ú/ǽý/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ɑ́ó/ǽǿ/_(C(C(C(C))))j
ú/ý/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j
ó/ǿ/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j
[ɑ́ɒ́]/ǽ/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j
ou/øy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
əu/øy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
ɑu/æy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
ɑo/æø/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
u/y/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
o/ø/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
[ɑɒ]/æ/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií]
óú/ǿý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i
ə́ú/ǿý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i
ɑ́ú/ǽý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i
ɑ́ó/ǽǿ/_C(C(C(C(C))))i
ú/ý/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i
ó/ǿ/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i
[ɑ́ɒ́]/ǽ/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i


Input lexicon
Code:
ourtskjɑ́
urtskjɑ́
wɒjé
øvóːskjɑ
øvórːskjɑ
əurkstríː
ɑlmsprínː
ekúːstri
ekúnːspri
ekúlmstrik


I'm trying to do some umlauting, but none of the [j] causes it with this code, while [i í] does as expected. The output I get is:
Code:
ourtskjɑ́ → ourtskjɑ́
urtskjɑ́ → urtskjɑ́
wɒjé → wɒjé
øvóːskjɑ → øvóːskjɑ
øvórːskjɑ → øvórːskjɑ
əurkstríː → øyrkstríː
ɑlmsprínː → ælmsprínː
ekúːstri → ekýːstri
ekúnːspri → ekýnːspri
ekúlmstrik → ekýlmstrik


So I tried some things, and it turns out that if I remove one optional C from the conditions dealing with j, then the code works for most part. I.e. with _(C(C(C)))j instead of _(C(C(C(C))))j. But not only that, with ou/øy/_(C(C(C)))j for example, [ourtskjɑ́] turns into [øyrtskjɑ́] even though [ou] and [j] have four consonants between them, and therefore ought not to be affected.

Another strange thing is that if the vowel is directly followed by [j] such as in the word [wɒjé], then the vowel will not change, even if only one optional C is specified in the code.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:32 am 
Avisaru
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ts is counted as one character, due to your specifications

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:59 am 
Visanom
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R.Rusanov wrote:
ts is counted as one character, due to your specifications

Ohh, duh! Thanks for pointing it out. Now, if I change that [t] to another consonant, for the first two words in this list, it works like it should.

ourlskjɑ́ → øyrlskjɑ́
urkskjɑ́ → yrkskjɑ́
wɒjé → wɒjé
øvóːskjɑ → øvóːskjɑ
øvórːskjɑ → øvórːskjɑ

əurkstríː → øyrkstríː
ɑlmsprínː → ælmsprínː
ekúːstri → ekýːstri
ekúnːspri → ekýnːspri
ekúlmstrik → ekýlmstrik

But there are still unresolved questions left. Since [ts] is just one consonant, why don't words with that change? Or the words that I've marked with red here. It's as if the program thinks that (C(C(C(C)))) means that there must be exactly four consonants and no less.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:16 am 
Boardlord
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Try rules like

ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j

A quick test worked as expected for me-- the change happens with zero to four consonants before the j.

I'm not sure what you wanted with the nested parentheses, but I can tell you from the code that they certainly do nothing to help. :)


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:32 am 
Šriftom
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It might be worthwhile to rename this thread with a plural -s and move it to NOTA, because a) trials and tribulations people have run into in the past will still be on record to help anyone else who runs into the same ones a year later, and b) half the time it's something we can answer for each other anyway.

If nobody disagrees I'll do it tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:11 am 
Šriftom
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I VIOLENTLY DISAGREE

You should do it now.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:47 am 
Sumerul
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In which case, I also have a question. I have the rules ə/a/x_ and ə/a/_x, but is there any way to combine them? Also, why doesn't (say) S/R/_[VS] work? I've had to split it into two rules (one ending in V, the other in S), but there are numerous other pairs (or more) of rules just like that.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:28 am 
Sanno
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KathAveara wrote:
In which case, I also have a question. I have the rules ə/a/x_ and ə/a/_x, but is there any way to combine them? Also, why doesn't (say) S/R/_[VS] work? I've had to split it into two rules (one ending in V, the other in S), but there are numerous other pairs (or more) of rules just like that.


To my knowledge, no, there's no way to do 'before and after' changes in one rule. And it appears that you can't put categories in square brackets. Of course, if V and S commonly pattern together, you can just define another category that includes both.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:54 am 
Sumerul
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Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:54 am 
Visanom
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zompist wrote:
Try rules like

ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j

A quick test worked as expected for me-- the change happens with zero to four consonants before the j.

I'm not sure what you wanted with the nested parentheses, but I can tell you from the code that they certainly do nothing to help. :)

Ah, that was another thing I was gonna ask about, if (C(C(C(C)))) or (C)(C)(C)(C) was quicker for the computer to compute, or if it made no difference. But okay, one should avoid nested parenthesis.

Anyhow, I had tried things like ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j before, and now I tried it again just to make sure. It works if there are exactly four consonants, but not if there are 0-3 consonants. This is what I get:
Code:
ourlskjɑ́ → øyrlskjɑ́
ourskjɑ́ → ourskjɑ́
ouskjɑ́ → ouskjɑ́
oukjɑ́ → oukjɑ́
oujɑ́ → oujɑ́

But it works when you try it? :?

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:32 pm 
Sumerul
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Tried it just now and it works for me in all those cases.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:06 pm 
Visanom
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KathAveara wrote:
Tried it just now and it works for me in all those cases.

That's strange. I tested it with both Chrome and IE just now, it does not work for me. I also asked a friend to try it, and it didn't work for him either. He has Firefox. What's different with you and Zompist? I tried bith with and without the rewrite rules, but it didn't make any difference.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:01 pm 
Boardlord
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As an experiment, start with the default categories, replace the rules with

ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j

and the lexicon with

oucja
ouccja
oucccja
ouccccja
oucccccja

This works fine for me (PC, IE 10, but I tested it on Mac Firefox earlier). Does it work for you?

Also FWIW make sure you have the latest version (shift-Refresh), in case you have a cached older version.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:48 pm 
Sumerul
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I'm using the latest Firefox on Win7.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:18 am 
Sanno
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It works for me too (FF, Mac). Qwynegolds version didn't work, but I figured out why: the default categories don't include <k> because they're geared towards Latin orthography.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:56 am 
Visanom
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OMG I finally figured out what the problem is. Thanks everyone whose been helping out. Now I realized that if I remove j from category C, then it works. It must be that when it says (C)(C)(C)(C)j, then in a word like "ourskja", j is counted as the fourth C rather than the obligatory j in the rule. >.<

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:15 am 
Boardlord
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Hmm, yeah, the program doesn't know how to take multiple paths. In this case I'd just put j in a different category than C.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:56 am 
Visanom
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Yeah thanks, I just did. :P

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:33 pm 
Sanci
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Hi!

How can make the assimilation of one category of a preceding consonants to the next immediately adjacent, with use of one-verse rules?
It's something like this:

agla → alla
abda → adda
erse → esse

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Artaxes: NS/SS/_
Where N is the assimilated category and S is the assimilating category.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:46 pm 
Sanci
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Rhetorica wrote:
Artaxes: NS/SS/_
Where N is the assimilated category and S is the assimilating category.


Thank you! But if two consonants are within the same category (ie. only voiceless plosives) must be assimilated by way "first to second" ?

P=ptʈckqʔ

atka → akka
atca → acca
etc.

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:54 pm 
Avisaru
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CC/CC/_ works by keeping the first value it encounters (atka → atta), so you'll need to write rules for every final voiceless plosive, e.g. Ct/tt/_

This is why you can't do metathesis with DC/CD/_ (where C = D). The special metathesis rule, DC/\\/_ can't be combined with other characters (e.g. DC\a\\/_ causes the output "a\\")

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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:01 am 
Sumerul
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Not to bother this, but...can we make it possible to put pre-existing categories in nonce categories themselves? For example, if

P=pb
T=td
K=kg
and we have a rule
[KT]w/P/_
it won't do anything. But
Kw/P/_
Tw/P/_

works as expected. Is this a bug?


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:47 am 
Sumerul
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Apparently that's intentional.


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 Post subject: Re: SCA2 questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:41 pm 
Avisaru
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Apparently, optional categories don't play well coming before non-optional categories in the environment part.

Use the following code with the sample to see what happens.

Code:
T=ptcbdg

V/V²/_(T)Tu
VT/\\/_(T)u
u//TV_


If the code is used as is, you will get fco, jco, and scendo; if you switch (T) and T, so T(T), then it runs fine.


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