Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Salmoneus »

chris_notts wrote:
Seven Fifty wrote:I've for a long time been fascinated by the fact that in the Gormenghast books, although they seem to fall fairly naturally in the category of "fantasy", there is an absence of magic or the magical. Specifically, it's interesting to me that more authors haven't done similar - the Tolkienian style has generated a vast slew of followers, and Peake's hardly any as far as I am aware.
Possibly because Gormenghast is, if I remember correctly, quite a dull and depressing read? Of course that's subjective, but it didn't strike me as particularly inspiring compared to, say, the Hobbit. If Peake had been a better author, or at least one with a more mass-market appeal (I'm aware that some regard Gormenghast as a classic), perhaps things would be the other way round? Afterall, most authors are followers rather than trend setters, as in every other walk of life.

EDIT: interesting question: how do Tolkien's and Peake's books compare from a sales perspective? Googling has failed to quickly find out the number of copies of the Gormenghast books sold. I only really have my own impression that far fewer people have read Gormenghast than have read Tolkien's books, but it would be good to put some numbers to it.
Bookscan says that Gormenghast sold 50,000 copies between 1998 and 2011. I suspect that's an underestimate. The Lord of the Rings, according to other sources, sold 50,000,000 copies in the last ten years alone, and again that's probably an underestimate.

It may be worth mentioning as well that Tolkien was writing both in a genre, albeit a nascent one, and a literary tradition. His works were a departure from convention, but they were a departure from within convention, from an author enmeshed in the British intelligensia of his day. Peake, on the other hand, was a painter, writing in a genre he'd invented himself, and he died before he completed his series. Even leaving aside the thematic and stylistic differences between the two, it would be no surprise that Peake's work found it harder to find an audience, both among the general public and among writers.

Also worth mentioning that Peake probably wasn't aware of writing a 'fantasy' novel (as noted, there's little if any actual magic in it). Rather, his work was shoehorned into the genre by a later generation, due to the lack of anything else to compare it to. 'Gothic Revival' would probably be more accurate.

That said, it's not entirely true that Gormenghast hasn't been influential. Moorcock has always been open about its influence on him, and has helped popularise it to others; Vance and Wolfe are often spoken of as following in Peake's footsteps, and more recently M John Harrison and China Mieville.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Daistallia »

Jessica Salmonson, C.J.Cherryh, Lian Hearn, and Barry Hughart, among others, have all written Asian themed fantasy.

Glen Cook and Steven Brust used European cultures as foundations for non-Tolkienian fantasy.

MAR Barker is IMHO the anti-Tolkien. Raymond Fiest popularized his world, even if he ripped it off blatantly.

Lawrence Watt-Evans' main body (Ethshar) is more European based than some of his other material, and I'd consider it more bog standard fantasy trope than Tolkien.

Anne McCaffrey's Pern is arguably fantasy and certainly not Tolkienian.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by chris_notts »

Daistallia wrote: Anne McCaffrey's Pern is arguably fantasy and certainly not Tolkienian.
I went through a period in my teens when I loved everything from Anne McCaffrey. I've since tried rereading some of them though and somehow they've gotten much worse in the last 15 - 20 years.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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Tad William's Tailchaser's Song

It is a work of fantasy about a cat, with bad conlanging but great conworlding. Humans are strange eldritch creatures, the cats have their own myths that tie into the plot, and the closest things to other "races" are other species of animals that Tailchaser runs into on his journey. It is epic fantasy without medieval culture, swords and sorcery or even human characters.

(And I saw that someone is making a film based on it, so bonus)
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by chris_notts »

vampyre_smiles wrote:Tad William's Tailchaser's Song

It is a work of fantasy about a cat, with bad conlanging but great conworlding. Humans are strange eldritch creatures, the cats have their own myths that tie into the plot, and the closest things to other "races" are other species of animals that Tailchaser runs into on his journey. It is epic fantasy without medieval culture, swords and sorcery or even human characters.

(And I saw that someone is making a film based on it, so bonus)
Tad Williams also did "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn", which might count as Tolkienesque, and "The War of the Flowers", which probably doesn't.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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A couple of works which haven't been mentioned above:

John M. Ford's The Dragon Waiting is, ostensibly, an alternate-history novel, set around the Wars of the Roses. However, it also includes magic, pagan deities, vampires, Renaissance Italy and the Byzantine Empire. It's also stuffed so full of allusions to other works and obscure historical references that this (relatively thin) novel warrants its own concordance.

Ricardo Pinto's The Stone Dance of the Chameleon is pretty much the antithesis of your pulp sword-and-sorcery fantasy. With LGBT lead characters, some fantastically deep worldbuilding (with strong mesoamerican influences), a well-done conlang and conscript (the former is split-ergative, the latter a syllabary heavily inspired by Mayan writing), casual cruelty and slaughter by the bucketload and finally not forgetting the freaking dinosaurs, this is a fairly exceptional fantasy trilogy. Personally, I find the protagonist a little wet and passive, but that doesn't change the fact that this is an awesome series. Dinosaurs, man.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Astraios »

Dewrad wrote:Ricardo Pinto's The Stone Dance of the Chameleon
This one looks yummy. I'm reading what's available on Amazon now.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by chris_notts »

Dewrad wrote: Ricardo Pinto's The Stone Dance of the Chameleon is pretty much the antithesis of your pulp sword-and-sorcery fantasy. With LGBT lead characters, some fantastically deep worldbuilding (with strong mesoamerican influences), a well-done conlang and conscript (the former is split-ergative, the latter a syllabary heavily inspired by Mayan writing), casual cruelty and slaughter by the bucketload and finally not forgetting the freaking dinosaurs, this is a fairly exceptional fantasy trilogy. Personally, I find the protagonist a little wet and passive, but that doesn't change the fact that this is an awesome series. Dinosaurs, man.
Agreed that it was something different. The main reason I struggled with it is the reason you mentioned - the only character who was at least tolerable was a complete doormat. I find it hard to enjoy fiction if I don't actually like any of the characters, even if the world/story is otherwise interesting. I guess I'd probably enjoy the conworlding / conlanging more if I didn't have to read the books to get at it - do you know if it is documented separately anywhere?
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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I dont read much fiction these days, but one that I really enjoyed was Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell" - I thought that the mixture of rgenecy era and celtic folklore was a very original new setting for fantasy. Also Anne Rice's Vampire books are in many ways fantasy - I enjoyed them when I was a lad.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Salmoneus »

At risk of annoying people with further self-pimping, people may also find my 60 Influential Figures in Fantasy series of posts relevant to the topic. It's essentially a history of the fantasy genre (from the late 19th century on) via some of the most influential names. Plus associated reading list.

It's in no way definitive, and I'm not an academic historian of the genre, it's just how things appeared to me after a bit of online research. But hopefully it might help save some other people from having to do all that research themselves!
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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Radagast revived wrote:I dont read much fiction these days, but one that I really enjoyed was Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell" - I thought that the mixture of rgenecy era and celtic folklore was a very original new setting for fantasy. Also Anne Rice's Vampire books are in many ways fantasy - I enjoyed them when I was a lad.
I'll wholeheartedly second the recommendation for Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell; it's my favorite book.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Daistallia »

Salmoneus wrote:At risk of annoying people with further self-pimping, people may also find my 60 Influential Figures in Fantasy series of posts relevant to the topic. It's essentially a history of the fantasy genre (from the late 19th century on) via some of the most influential names. Plus associated reading list.

It's in no way definitive, and I'm not an academic historian of the genre, it's just how things appeared to me after a bit of online research. But hopefully it might help save some other people from having to do all that research themselves!
It's quite a good list.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Daistallia »

chris_notts wrote:
Daistallia wrote: Anne McCaffrey's Pern is arguably fantasy and certainly not Tolkienian.
I went through a period in my teens when I loved everything from Anne McCaffrey. I've since tried rereading some of them though and somehow they've gotten much worse in the last 15 - 20 years.
Haven't read any of it in years myself. Maybe my tastes are a bit odd, but I really liked the Harper Hall books but was not so hot on the main books.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Daistallia »

A few others of note:

The Borderland series was a nice punk feeling urban fantasy UA series back in the 80s.

And a huge gapping hole is Robert Howard's Hyborian works, especially the Conan stories.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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This seems a decent place to ask: what's the best place to start into Dunsany? None of the libraries or bookstore here have any of his stuff so I gotta go off of Amazon, but I can't find a nice comprehensive "Collected Works of..." edition there that has all his famous stories, like you usually can for most such authors.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

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Ketumak wrote:I'd recommend Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke.
This is one of my favourite books. You should all read it right now.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by ol bofosh »

The Song of Albion trilogy by Stephen Lawhead. Draws on Celitc mythology and a very but doesn't populate the world with different races and magicians (there are supernatural forces and a class of "Druid") A modern American living in Oxford finds himself transported to a very Celtic Otherworld. Sort of pre-medieval.

One I'm reading right now is The War of the Flowers by Tad Williams. A modern American finds himself transported to another world (see a theme?) filled with all sorts of Faery creatures (brownies, goblins, pixies, ogres, trolls, etc.). It sort of sounds typical, except that it's not medieval and resembles the modern world in some ways.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Particles the Greek »

Risla wrote:
Radagast revived wrote:I dont read much fiction these days, but one that I really enjoyed was Susanna Clarke's "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell" - I thought that the mixture of rgenecy era and celtic folklore was a very original new setting for fantasy. Also Anne Rice's Vampire books are in many ways fantasy - I enjoyed them when I was a lad.
I'll wholeheartedly second the recommendation for Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell; it's my favorite book.
I, OTOH, couldn't make it past halfway. So you may wish to ignore my recommendation for Kate Elliot's latest trilogy, the third of which - Cold Steel - I'm currently reading. Alternate Earth, but very non-JRRT.

EDIT: not "trology", which is a pity, partly in the light of recent ZBB events, and partly because there are actual trolls in it.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Ketumak »

Oh good - I make that four votes for Jonathan Strange! Here's another one, I forgot about last night: La sombra del viento by Carlos Ruiz Zafón, translated into English as The shadow of the wind. (I read it in English, I'm afraid!)

It's set in Barcelona just after World War 2. The main story concerns a young man called Daniel and the terrible problems caused in his life by a strange book. Then there's a story within the main story.

It's not just the modern setting that makes this un-Tolkienian, but also the way the action happens on a small scale and there's less than a dozen characters who count. There's also a lot of psychology in it - it's not all action based.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by ol bofosh »

There's several books by Carlos Ruiz Zafón; I absolutely loved the. Real world settings with a supernatural twist. Although the "supernatural" elements remain largely explained, they're just weird enough to require something supernatural.

The Angel's Game, The Prisoner of Heaven and The Shadow of the Wind are all part of The Cemetery of Forgotten Books (I've read them all in English, too!). Also the Prince of Mist run's along similar lines. One day, when I'm in Barcelona, I'll have to take a tour with these stories - I think one of them has a map.

Limbo and Limbo II by Andy Secombe (son of Harry Secombe) are funny. Humour like Pratchet, but there's a world parallel to our own, called Limbo. Some of the action takes place in my home town, Hove (near the King Alfred swimming pool that I frequented as a kid). Seeing the Brighton Pavilion on the front was too much of a temptation for me.

I like this thread. Gives me ideas for shopping trips to book shops. :)
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Ketumak »

Thanks ol bofosh - I'll look out for those other Carlos RZ titles.

A couple more have occured to me:

The time traveler's wife by Audrey Niffeneger is about a man with a genetic disorder that makes him time travel. His wife narrates and tries to cope with, and make sense of, what happens to him.

I'm surprised Philip Pullman's His dark materials hasn't come up yet. It's epic, like Tolkien, but with a female protagonist and grounded in the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics instead of ancient myth. There's some open anti-theist speeches which I didn't think were necessary - Tolkien's views were much more implied.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by R.Rusanov »

I like Dunsany. He's a master of his art...
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Radagast revived »

I wouldn't consider Shadow of the Wind fantasy, I think it is clearly Magical Realism because it is set in an historical setting and only employs some magical elements. But yes it is a great and very recommendable book. It is of course a question how far one can stray form canonical fantasy and still be fantasy, but in this case I really think Ru-iz Zafon very clearly draws on the magical realism tradition and not fantasy.

I also agree that Pullman's world is a great example of non-Tolkienian fantasy.

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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by qiihoskeh »

I read mainly SF, but one fantasy novel that comes to mind is Tam Lin by Pamela Dean. It takes place at a college in the 1970's, despite the main plot being taken from a Scottish ballad. It's definitely un-Tolkienian.
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Re: Non-Tolkienian fantasy

Post by Mornche Geddick »

Salmoneus wrote:I don't remember the horse being introduced. But I do like the epilogue, where we see just how barbaric and primitive all these characters we've been following are, compared to the foreign ambassador.

P.S. Good to see you outside the Almea board again!
Right at the end. The ambassador has horses with him and the inhabitants are immensely interested, having never seen them before. He writes to his king, telling him that there will be unlimited demand for horses for the foreseeable future from their new trading partners.

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