Linguistic Struggles Thread

Discussions worth keeping around later.
gestaltist
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by gestaltist »

ol bofosh wrote:
sirdanilot wrote:If you can't do consonant clusters don't try to learn Dutch.

For example a bus stop in my town is named 'Oegstgeest-Abtspoelweg' [uχstˈχeɪst ˈɑptspulwɛχ]


That doesn't seem so hard, if you can separate it wth a syllable. [pts.p] would be the easiest for me.

The Polish phrase I was told began with around four consonants in a combination that my English mouth just couldn't quite do with breaking it up into syllables.

As sirdanilot said, it’s „Wszystkiego najlepszego“ (lit. „best wishes“) which is pronounced something like: [fʂɨˈstkʲɛgɔ najlɛˈpʂɛgɔ].

I suspect you didn’t hear the /ɨ/ and misheard the beginning of the phrase as something like [fʃtk].

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by ol bofosh »

I suspect so too, I don't remember that extra vowel. I was convinced the word was one syllable.
It was about time I changed this.

gestaltist
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:21 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by gestaltist »

ol bofosh wrote:I suspect so too, I don't remember that extra vowel. I was convinced the word was one syllable.

I don’t know why but this happens to most foreigners when they listen to Polish. (They don’t hear this vowel.) When learning from written text, they usually pronounce it as /i/ which isn’t very accurate, either.

Shm Jay
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 823
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:29 pm

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Shm Jay »

I'm trying out the Michel Thomas Polish course, and I can tell you that having studied Russian and a long time ago a little Ukrainian really helps.

User avatar
Arzena
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:19 pm
Location: ¡California, Tejas, Marruecos!

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Arzena »

At the host family in Morocco today, host father asks me if /stãws/ was a good time to go to the pool tomorrow. I thought he had slipped into French (not an uncommon occurrence here!) and so I got confused. Host dad sees that I'm not understanding and repeats himself in Modern Standard Arabic: sitta wa nifṣ or six thirty. That Moroccan Arabic contraction tho!
A New Yorker wrote:Isn't it sort of a relief to talk about the English Premier League instead of the sad state of publishing?
Abi wrote:At this point it seems pretty apparent that PIE was simply an ancient esperanto gone awry.
Shtåså, Empotle7á, Neire Wippwo

Bristel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Contact:

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Bristel »

That contraction is sexy. I would love to learn Arabic, but I need a fluent speaker to learn from.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

User avatar
احمکي ارش-ھجن
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

RE:Arabic
I still struggle pronouncing the emphatic consonants, mostly word-finally. I think I have the voiced and voiceless pharyngeal fricatives almost down.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by sirdanilot »

I am in Lisbon right now but oh Lord I can hardly understand people here with my Brazilian ear and often just speak English

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by ol bofosh »

Had a few years of speaking Spanish now, but it's still a language I have to think about: vocab, grammar, pronounciation. If only I could drop one, then it would make life easier, like pronounciation:
[ɒ.lɜ ǀ kʰɛ.ˈtʰæɫ]?
[sɔɪ̯ ʏn æŋ.ˈglɒ.fə.nɜʉ̯ tʰɛʉ.ˈtʰæɫ]

It's [tʰɛʉ̯.tˡɫ̩.ˈmɛn.tʰɛɪ̯] wrong, but it feels so right! Especially when I'm tired and my neurons aren't firing up properly.

[æ.dɪi̯.ˈɒs] :wink:
It was about time I changed this.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Torco »

That's what I do whenever I have to actually speak english <as opposed to write it>. I just pronounce it as if it were regular old spanish.

so ai saund mor or les laik dis, clír vauels en evrizing. enits ríli a lot mor riláxing dan having to pur in de cógnitiv rísorses to du de jol pronunsiéichon zing.

User avatar
Pole, the
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Pole, the »

[it tsɔʔuld xavɛ bɛʔɛn mutsx vɔrsɛ]
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

User avatar
ol bofosh
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:30 pm
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by ol bofosh »

Torco wrote:That's what I do whenever I have to actually speak english <as opposed to write it>. I just pronounce it as if it were regular old spanish.

so ai saund mor or les laik dis, clír vauels en evrizing. enits ríli a lot mor riláxing dan having to pur in de cógnitiv rísorses to du de jol pronunsiéichon zing.


Laqui iu. Ai zink if ai did de seim ai'd guet sam verri estreinch lucs.

What's worse is that I'm phonemically closer to Spanish than my own accent (I believe most of the time) and yet my gf stills tells me I have an "acentazo". It doesn't seem worth the effort. :roll:
It was about time I changed this.

Yng
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Location: Llundain

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Yng »

I mean, pronouncing Spanish more like Spanish than like your native language is a pretty low bar for not having an accent.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar

User avatar
Dewrad
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:02 pm

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Dewrad »

ol bofosh wrote:
Torco wrote:That's what I do whenever I have to actually speak english <as opposed to write it>. I just pronounce it as if it were regular old spanish.

so ai saund mor or les laik dis, clír vauels en evrizing. enits ríli a lot mor riláxing dan having to pur in de cógnitiv rísorses to du de jol pronunsiéichon zing.


Laqui iu. Ai zink if ai did de seim ai'd guet sam verri estreinch lucs.

What's worse is that I'm phonemically closer to Spanish than my own accent (I believe most of the time) and yet my gf stills tells me I have an "acentazo". It doesn't seem worth the effort. :roll:

Spanish people, in my experience, if they have the even faintest suspicion that their interlocutor might be foreign, claim that they hear un acento. I have a friend who speaks Spanish natively, but also looks very pale and normally speaks to me in impeccable English having gone to uni here. On introducting him to my Spanish friend, she refused to believe that he was born and raised in Toledo, because she swore blind she could detect an accent.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

ol bofosh wrote:Had a few years of speaking Spanish now, but it's still a language I have to think about: vocab, grammar, pronounciation. If only I could drop one, then it would make life easier, like pronounciation:
[ɒ.lɜ ǀ kʰɛ.ˈtʰæɫ]?
[sɔɪ̯ ʏn æŋ.ˈglɒ.fə.nɜʉ̯ tʰɛʉ.ˈtʰæɫ]

It's [tʰɛʉ̯.tˡɫ̩.ˈmɛn.tʰɛɪ̯] wrong, but it feels so right! Especially when I'm tired and my neurons aren't firing up properly.

[æ.dɪi̯.ˈɒs] :wink:


To get that accent right, you need to glottalise those /t/s...
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Torco »

Yng wrote:I mean, pronouncing Spanish more like Spanish than like your native language is a pretty low bar for not having an accent.

Yeah, I'm sure my mandarin is closer to mandarin than to spanish, but it's still, I'm sure, laowai as fuck.

sirdanilot
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by sirdanilot »

I can *imitate* an actual englishman relatively well, but I can absolutely not speak like an actual englishman during random English conversation. I take out my Dunglish there automatically.

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Vijay »

I am typing out my grandfather's World War II diary s l o w l y . It's mostly in Malayalam. I've been sitting on one page like all week instead of just banging it out.

EDIT: Oh, and my parents taught me three words for something like 'contagious disease' in Malayalam just hours ago, and I've already forgotten all three of them! Urgh!

User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Viktor77 »

Vijay wrote:I am typing out my grandfather's World War II diary s l o w l y . It's mostly in Malayalam. I've been sitting on one page like all week instead of just banging it out.

EDIT: Oh, and my parents taught me three words for something like 'contagious disease' in Malayalam just hours ago, and I've already forgotten all three of them! Urgh!


You should publish it in Malayalam. I don't know what literature in Malayalam looks like but maybe there's a demand? :)

My linguistic struggle is very odd. I've been living in Liège since August so by now you'd think that if I went out with a group of Liégeois friends speaking in their dialect which I've heard since August I'd be able to understand most of it, right? Well, then you'd be wrong. Apparently I haven't got as used to the dialect as I thought. Meanwhile I spent the day in Antwerp yesterday with a friend from a suburb of Paris and I could basically understand 100% of what she said. She admitted that she has something of an elevated accent, refined vocabulary and diction (like RP English I suppose), but I was still surprised at how, not having been exposed to Parisian French since before my arrival here, I still somehow understand it far better than the dialect I've heard since August.
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

Vijay
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Vijay »

Well, you've also been studying French formally, right? Maybe that has something to do with it.
Viktor77 wrote:You should publish it in Malayalam. I don't know what literature in Malayalam looks like but maybe there's a demand? :)

Well, maybe. There is not that much of a demand for Malayalam literature in general; in bookstores in most towns in Kerala, I'm pretty sure all you could find in Malayalam is evangelical literature because everything else is in English. But of course, there are also lots of Malayalees who can't read English, so at least they are relatively likely to read stuff in their own language. There may be other war memoirs in Malayalam out there, too, but I can't think of any right now at least, so maybe it's worth a shot. I also intend to send the (typed-out version of the) original off to his children since they could read it.

But I've started translating it to English, too. The original was in English anyway, and if I don't do that, none of his other grandchildren will be able to read it. The only other grandchild he has who can even barely read Malayalam is my brother. And I definitely think it would be interesting for the English-language market, too; AFAICT literature related to World War II tends to focus on Europe and especially the Jewish Holocaust, and since this is talking about the experiences of an ordinary Indian villager at the time, I think this would offer an interesting perspective on that.

Aya
Niš
Niš
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Aya »

I'm trying to memorize the Cherokee word for cook (v.), and it's just not working. How can you have such a common word be six syllables long?! The combination of the syllables, the vowel length, and the tone (Oklahoma Cherokee has six of them) is what gets me. I'm starting to wonder if there was a shorter word for "to cook" that just didn't get written down in the dictionary I have.Japanese feels friendly by comparison.

Still determined to get fluent, but it's going slowly.

User avatar
Pole, the
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1606
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Pole, the »

Aya wrote:I'm trying to memorize the Cherokee word for cook (v.), and it's just not working. How can you have such a common word be six syllables long?!
Isn't it that most languages don't have a separate word for that and instead use something like “to boil” or “to prepare food”? (Or just “to make X” instead of ”to cook X”?)
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.

Aya
Niš
Niš
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Linguistic Struggles Thread

Post by Aya »

Pole, the wrote:Isn't it that most languages don't have a separate word for that and instead use something like “to boil” or “to prepare food”? (Or just “to make X” instead of ”to cook X”?)
Aha! Sure enough, my dictionary has "to make" (3s) as only three syllables long: goohlvvsga. That makes a lot more sense. Thank you.

Post Reply