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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:39 am 
Šriftom
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The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

(Sorry, to me racism means racial prejudice.)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:47 am 
Sanno
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mèþru wrote:
The quote is obviously far from being a perfect anology and probably is somewhat unfair.

In fact, it's about as perfect an example of false equivalence as one could hope for. It's not some fringe position to say that White supremacy is "one of the most core fundamental tenets of ...American society" when it's written into our Constitution.

Note also how Chagen said "American society" and "Western society", not *"White American society" and *"White society", but in your "analogy" you replaced these with "African-American society" and "Black society". What do you think that says?

Travis B. wrote:
The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

And now we have good ol' tone policing. "I'd support your cause if you just said nicer things about me" is making it all about your feelings rather than the actual problem. If there's a serious injustice in society (and we all agree that there is, right?) then it shouldn't matter how it's brought to your attention. If you find the rhetoric of some anti-racist organisations too blistering, fine, there are others out there who will cater more to your sensibilities (such as those run by other White people). Go to them instead. But saying you won't support a worthy cause because what some of its proponents say "alienates" you is just admitting that you weren't interested in supporting it in the first place.

dwk wrote:
Chagen wrote:
not counting the continued genocide of non-whites committed by the American police every day, of course

Aren't most black people killed by other black people?

No, the number one killer of Black people in the USA is heart disease.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:04 pm 
Šriftom
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linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

And now we have good ol' tone policing. "I'd support your cause if you just said nicer things about me" is making it all about your feelings rather than the actual problem. If there's a serious injustice in society (and we all agree that there is, right?) then it shouldn't matter how it's brought to your attention. If you find the rhetoric of some anti-racist organisations too blistering, fine, there are others out there who will cater more to your sensibilities (such as those run by other White people). Go to them instead. But saying you won't support a worthy cause because what some of its proponents say "alienates" you is just admitting that you weren't interested in supporting it in the first place.

It's called I feel just the same way about being the object of racial prejudice as anyone else. It isn't bad when someone from one group does it but good when someone from another group does it. Yes, I may be more privileged in some regards than other people, but it doesn't make it feel any different. So if someone wants me to support them, directing racial prejudice at me is not the way to do it. And I do not believe in collective responsibility, so I do not buy the argument that I am somehow responsible for what someone else did just because we are both descended from people who lived in Europe.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:21 pm 
Sanno
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Travis B. wrote:
Yes, I may be more privileged in some regards than other people, but it doesn't make it feel any different.

Honestly, how would you (or I) know?

Travis B. wrote:
And I do not believe in collective responsibility, so I do not buy the argument that I am somehow responsible for what someone else did just because we are both descended from people who lived in Europe.

It's not about "what someone else did", it's about what you are doing right now, which is derailing these discussions with terminological quibbles. Can you imagine the difference you could make if you spent as much energy educating other White people in how not to be racist while using the soothing sympathetic approach you think would be most effective as you do being the first to jump in here with #notallWhitepeople! every time this topic comes up?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:47 pm 
Šriftom
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linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
Yes, I may be more privileged in some regards than other people, but it doesn't make it feel any different.

Honestly, how would you (or I) know?

About racial prejudice, point. But in general, I am not exactly privileged in all ways. (What I mean should be obvious from my posts. Or if it isn't, basically, people with cancer have their fucking ribbons and mass donation drives and shit, while people like me are frequently subject to poor and frequently reduced in funding healthcare services and need to hide it IRL lest we be the object of all kinds of prejudice, from employers, coworkers, acquaintances, friends, even family members.)

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
And I do not believe in collective responsibility, so I do not buy the argument that I am somehow responsible for what someone else did just because we are both descended from people who lived in Europe.

It's not about "what someone else did", it's about what you are doing right now, which is derailing these discussions with terminological quibbles. Can you imagine the difference you could make if you spent as much energy educating other White people in how not to be racist while using the soothing sympathetic approach you think would be most effective as you do being the first to jump in here with #notallWhitepeople! every time this topic comes up?

But this is about collective responsibility, because it implies that races have guilt. And as for why I jump in with #notallWhitepeople, as you put it, is that I vehemently object to collective responsibility, and take it personally, because it implies that I am somehow personally responsible for centuries of oppression by white people despite not having oppressed anyone as far as I can recall.

Of course, it seems you expect me to become an activist, something that takes a lot more time and energy than these arguments on the ZBB, time and energy I don't exactly have right now. (I am basically pretending to work right now because I am not entirely functional as it is.) Maybe we'll see when I am not nearly constantly depressed.

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Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:23 pm 
Avisaru
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Travis B. wrote:
hwhatting wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
hwhatting wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
To me the problem with the term cyberbullying is that it implies that it is special somehow and thus needing differentiation from normal bullying, which people can too get PTSD or kill themselves as a result of.

Do you really think that using the term cyberbullying implies that normal bullying doesn't cause PTSD or suicides? I think it's a useful term inasmuch for normal bullying you need physical presence, and it often involves physical abuse, while for cyberbullying, the bully doesn't need to be physically near the victim.

I think that focusing on cyberbullying takes attention away from normal bullying, when they should both get attention, together.

Well, like with all issues, in some circumstances it's more reasonable to treat them together (especially where physical bullying and cyberbullying come together, or when discussing the attitudes leading to bullying or the damage done by it), and in other circumstances it's more reasonable to treat them separately (especially when talking about technical methods of preventing them or about policing the spaces where they happen).

Well yes, I would agree with viewing them in this manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fStdkvn4tnw

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:32 pm 
Sanno
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Travis B. wrote:
But in general, I am not exactly privileged in all ways.

And I recognise that. But being White really is a big plus. For instance, White people in this country have roughly twice as much access to mental health services in this country than Black people. So as shitty as things are for you at times, it's very likely they'd be significantly worse if you weren't White. That is something worth acknowledging when the subject comes up.

Travis B. wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
It's not about "what someone else did", it's about what you are doing right now, which is derailing these discussions with terminological quibbles. Can you imagine the difference you could make if you spent as much energy educating other White people in how not to be racist while using the soothing sympathetic approach you think would be most effective as you do being the first to jump in here with #notallWhitepeople! every time this topic comes up?

But this is about collective responsibility, because it implies that races have guilt.

How? Who even introduced the concept of "guilt"?

Travis B. wrote:
And as for why I jump in with #notallWhitepeople, as you put it, is that I vehemently object to collective responsibility, and take it personally, because it implies that I am somehow personally responsible for centuries of oppression by white people despite not having oppressed anyone as far as I can recall.


Travis B. wrote:
Of course, it seems you expect me to become an activist, something that takes a lot more time and energy than these arguments on the ZBB, time and energy I don't exactly have right now. (I am basically pretending to work right now because I am not entirely functional as it is.) Maybe we'll see when I am not nearly constantly depressed.

I thought you were an activist already. You certainly seem to be an adamant believer in economic justice and social equality.

But I'm not asking you to do anything more than you do already. I would just like to see a redirection of effort. Every time I'm tempted to respond to a discussion of issues related to social justice, I first ask myself the question, "How will this help?" That is, is this a comment which somehow furthers my long-term goals of insuring that everyone in this world is treated equally or is it just ego service? An embarrassing amount of the time, it's the latter. It's me reacting to something personally and wanting to demand recognition and reassurance from those with bigger fish to fry. When it comes to taking up all the air in the room, we White guys are the worst. Becoming aware of this and trying to do better is really the very least we can do to make this world a better place.

If you know you're not part of "the vast majority of white people [who] are racist as hell", then Chagen's not talking about you, so there's no reason to take his remarks personally and you don't need to put effort into refuting them (which you were so quick to do, you misread what he was even saying). Instead, you could respond to his political points instead (like thetha did). It is a thread to discuss the upcoming election, after all. Or just ignore it, like you've ignored most posts to that thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:56 pm 
Šriftom
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linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
But in general, I am not exactly privileged in all ways.

And I recognise that. But being White really is a big plus. For instance, White people in this country have roughly twice as much access to mental health services in this country than Black people. So as shitty as things are for you at times, it's very likely they'd be significantly worse if you weren't White. That is something worth acknowledging when the subject comes up.

Oh, this is definitely true. Really, I am pretty well off as seriously chronically mentally ill people go. I can actually work - or at least pretend to do so well enough to get by - at a well-paying job that gives good benefits, when many seriously chronically mentally ill people are limited to minimum wage or near-minimum wage jobs or cannot work at all and are stuck with the measly income provided by SSI/SSDI or no income at all. I live in an area where there are decent mental health providers not far away, and I can drive, so I am not stuck with providers very close by, when many people have to deal with a small selection of often pretty poor providers nearby and are frequently limited by either not being able to drive and not having anyone to drive them or living too far away from any major population centers to make it practical to find a decent provider. I live close to a good psychiatric hospital, while many are faced with ever-shrinking numbers of beds in psychiatric wards, leaving people who should be inside stuck outside even when they are only barely safe to be so, or even stuck in jail cells because it is not safe to allow them outside but there are no beds available for them. In many places law enforcement has taken up the role of emergency mental health responders and providers, something that law enforcement officers are not trained for, or if they are, are not adequately trained for, with very poor results. And I have a family who will let me live with them indefinitely, and for that matter can afford to rent a decent apartment in a good area if I cared to do so, while so many mentally ill people out there are homeless. And so on. And all of this only gets worse for people living in poor areas and minorities.

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
It's not about "what someone else did", it's about what you are doing right now, which is derailing these discussions with terminological quibbles. Can you imagine the difference you could make if you spent as much energy educating other White people in how not to be racist while using the soothing sympathetic approach you think would be most effective as you do being the first to jump in here with #notallWhitepeople! every time this topic comes up?

But this is about collective responsibility, because it implies that races have guilt.

How? Who even introduced the concept of "guilt"?

I should take that back. What was introduced was not guilt per se, but rather the idea that all white people in America are inculcated with white supremacism and fascism by American culture. Which is not guilt per se, but rather is claiming that all white peoiple in America share far right-wing beliefs and racism.

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
And as for why I jump in with #notallWhitepeople, as you put it, is that I vehemently object to collective responsibility, and take it personally, because it implies that I am somehow personally responsible for centuries of oppression by white people despite not having oppressed anyone as far as I can recall.


Travis B. wrote:
Of course, it seems you expect me to become an activist, something that takes a lot more time and energy than these arguments on the ZBB, time and energy I don't exactly have right now. (I am basically pretending to work right now because I am not entirely functional as it is.) Maybe we'll see when I am not nearly constantly depressed.

I thought you were an activist already. You certainly seem to be an adamant believer in economic justice and social equality.

I sit online on the ZBB in my spare time, whether at home or in empty time at work. I don't go to demonstrations. I don't actively propagandize. I don't go to meetings discussing how to effectively do so. I used to, a very long time ago, and then I got sick, and that was the end of that. Every so often I think I should, but that is really only possible in good times, and even then I rarely have the energy anymore. (I am jealous of my friend Liz, who is an invariable font of energy, allowing her to do stuff like take up pro bono cases outside of everything she does for work and still have energy left over for everything else she does in her free time, but I am not her.)

linguoboy wrote:
But I'm not asking you to do anything more than you do already. I would just like to see a redirection of effort. Every time I'm tempted to respond to a discussion of issues related to social justice, I first ask myself the question, "How will this help?" That is, is this a comment which somehow furthers my long-term goals of insuring that everyone in this world is treated equally or is it just ego service? An embarrassing amount of the time, it's the latter. It's me reacting to something personally and wanting to demand recognition and reassurance from those with bigger fish to fry. When it comes to taking up all the air in the room, we White guys are the worst. Becoming aware of this and trying to do better is really the very least we can do to make this world a better place.

In these cases that you are referring to (as explained below in this case), the idea in question was fundamentally something I could not agree with as said. I could sympathize with the motivation behind saying such, but not what came out of such motivation. In these cases it was oppression of black people by white people resulting in wanting to ascribe racism to all white people (or at least all white people in America). I could ignore what was being expressed out of sympathy for the underlying motivation, yes, in that that would potentially further social justice and so on. The problem for me, though, is that to me racial prejudice is wrong, regardless of whoever is expressing it, regardless of how privileged or less privileged they are.

linguoboy wrote:
If you know you're not part of "the vast majority of white people [who] are racist as hell", then Chagen's not talking about you, so there's no reason to take his remarks personally and you don't need to put effort into refuting them (which you were so quick to do, you misread what he was even saying). Instead, you could respond to his political points instead (like thetha did). It is a thread to discuss the upcoming election, after all. Or just ignore it, like you've ignored most posts to that thread.

It was just the way the idea was expressed that bothered me. Things ascribing properties to entire races (in this case an entire race within a particular country), or whatever group one is not voluntarily a member of, tends to really bother me. I would have been just as bothered if it was someone claiming that all Mexicans in the US are wetbacks or that all Muslims sympathize with terrorists. If Chagen had said many rather than all I would not have been nearly as bothered.

As for the rest of the thread, honestly, I am sick of this race, and want the election to be done with ASAP. The more depressed I am, the more that is true.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:45 pm 
Sanno
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Travis B. wrote:
What was introduced was not guilt per se, but rather the idea that all white people in America are inculcated with white supremacism and fascism by American culture. Which is not guilt per se, but rather is claiming that all white peoiple in America share far right-wing beliefs and racism.

Not really. I was inculcated in Catholicism. That's not a claim that I hold Catholic beliefs nor tantamount to one.

Travis B. wrote:
II don't go to demonstrations. I don't actively propagandize. I don't go to meetings discussing how to effectively do so. I used to, a very long time ago, and then I got sick, and that was the end of that.

My mistake then.

Unlike some people, however, I don't reflexively dismiss the effectiveness of online activism. People like to say that no one changes their minds as a result of online arguments, but that's patently false. I've seen it done. In fact, I've done it myself (both changed others' ideas and had mine changed). It's generally a slow process, which actually strikes me as a positive: if I can change your mind in the course of one brief exchange, what's to stop someone else from changing it back the same way?

So I've come to believe that what we do and say online matters. Alone, it isn't sufficient to remake society. But then no one approach is.

Travis B. wrote:
If Chagen had said many rather than all I would not have been nearly as bothered.

Which is what he did say, so I'm failing to understand what the problem was.

Travis B. wrote:
As for the rest of the thread, honestly, I am sick of this race, and want the election to be done with ASAP. The more depressed I am, the more that is true.

Hear, hear. I suspect this next week is going to seem a least a month long.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:12 pm 
Šriftom
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linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
What was introduced was not guilt per se, but rather the idea that all white people in America are inculcated with white supremacism and fascism by American culture. Which is not guilt per se, but rather is claiming that all white peoiple in America share far right-wing beliefs and racism.

Not really. I was inculcated in Catholicism. That's not a claim that I hold Catholic beliefs nor tantamount to one.

Actually, I used the wrong words there, because Chagen clearly said that all white Americans hold those beliefs.

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
II don't go to demonstrations. I don't actively propagandize. I don't go to meetings discussing how to effectively do so. I used to, a very long time ago, and then I got sick, and that was the end of that.

My mistake then.

I wish I were an activist, but I unfortunately am not. And somehow attempting to be an activist on just the ZBB does not really seem to cut it.

linguoboy wrote:
Unlike some people, however, I don't reflexively dismiss the effectiveness of online activism. People like to say that no one changes their minds as a result of online arguments, but that's patently false. I've seen it done. In fact, I've done it myself (both changed others' ideas and had mine changed). It's generally a slow process, which actually strikes me as a positive: if I can change your mind in the course of one brief exchange, what's to stop someone else from changing it back the same way?

So I've come to believe that what we do and say online matters. Alone, it isn't sufficient to remake society. But then no one approach is.

Online activism is what seems practical for me at this point. The thing is I don't like many of the online activists (read: Tumblr), and I don't really use much outside of the ZBB...

linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
If Chagen had said many rather than all I would not have been nearly as bothered.

Which is what he did say, so I'm failing to understand what the problem was.

I was referring to the following line:

Chagen wrote:
Trump's entire MO is appeal to the fascist tendencies and white supremacist beliefs that all white people in American society hold thanks to the culture instilling those beliefs


linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
As for the rest of the thread, honestly, I am sick of this race, and want the election to be done with ASAP. The more depressed I am, the more that is true.

Hear, hear. I suspect this next week is going to seem a least a month long.

I am not sure whether to stay up election night and send a text to Liz saying either "YEESSSSSSSSSSS" or "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" depending on who wins, or just ignore it and see what the newspaper (or Google News) says the following morning.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:37 pm 
Smeric
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linguoboy wrote:
mèþru wrote:
The quote is obviously far from being a perfect anology and probably is somewhat unfair.

In fact, it's about as perfect an example of false equivalence as one could hope for. It's not some fringe position to say that White supremacy is "one of the most core fundamental tenets of ...American society" when it's written into our Constitution.

Note also how Chagen said "American society" and "Western society", not *"White American society" and *"White society", but in your "analogy" you replaced these with "African-American society" and "Black society". What do you think that says?
This is why I wrote the line you quoted: I wasn't trying to set them as equivalent, but similar. I am sorry if I was too vague.
linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

And now we have good ol' tone policing. "I'd support your cause if you just said nicer things about me" is making it all about your feelings rather than the actual problem. If there's a serious injustice in society (and we all agree that there is, right?) then it shouldn't matter how it's brought to your attention. If you find the rhetoric of some anti-racist organisations too blistering, fine, there are others out there who will cater more to your sensibilities (such as those run by other White people). Go to them instead. But saying you won't support a worthy cause because what some of its proponents say "alienates" you is just admitting that you weren't interested in supporting it in the first place.
I agree with this and I agree with the positions you state in your interpretation of Chagen's words. I am reacting to my own interpretation, however. Let us look again at individual pieces that have lead me to a different interpretation, one of racism against white people:
Chagen wrote:
It is impossible to be racist against the ruling class of a society. Prejudice+Power.
Chagen wrote:
Americans are lynching black people in the streets (though I don't doubt they would if it weren't discouraged socially)
There's also other problems with what they wrote, such as saying that all voters of Trump are mentally challenged and need to be killed rather than reasoned with, or that black people are being subjected to genocide. They also says that the primary purpose of the police is to uphold white supremacism and that they enforce it via said genocide. Most policemen are not the Ferguson police (scroll up to see my first reply to Chagen). I might be missing several other problems.
linguoboy wrote:
It's not about "what someone else did", it's about what you are doing right now, which is derailing these discussions with terminological quibbles. Can you imagine the difference you could make if you spent as much energy educating other White people in how not to be racist while using the soothing sympathetic approach you think would be most effective as you do being the first to jump in here with #notallWhitepeople! every time this topic comes up?
  1. I am not white. Well, I guess in American culture and in their census, I would be considered white, but I consider my ethnicity as non-white.
  2. Two, I only jumped when the phrasing seems unfairly biased against white people. When it condemns white people for racism in a way I consider accurate or even just hyperbole, I wouldn't react negatively. Compare this thread, in which I actually argued against Travis about a similar argument.
  3. I participate in these things because I am interested in hearing other sides of debates, improving my debating skills and learning more about the topics we discuss.
linguoboy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
As for the rest of the thread, honestly, I am sick of this race, and want the election to be done with ASAP. The more depressed I am, the more that is true.

Hear, hear. I suspect this next week is going to seem a least a month long.
Agreed.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:02 pm 
Smeric
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dwk wrote:
Chagen wrote:
not counting the continued genocide of non-whites committed by the American police every day, of course

Aren't most black people killed by other black people?


No and such fake crime statistics are often used by neo-nazis such as Stormfront and /pol/ to recruit people to their ranks.

Travis B. wrote:
The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

(Sorry, to me racism means racial prejudice.)


The problem here is that you think I am considering you equal to a crazy neo-nazi. That's not true. My point is that American society is structurally and socially designed to advantage certain races, and thus people are silently advantaged and disadvantaged from this. Note that everyone participates in this. We are all racist in some way. PoC are often racist towards each other--hell, they're often racist towards their own race! And white people are also hurt by this racism in certain ways. They can't express interest in other cultures without being mocked. They are often discouraged from having interracial relationships. Their racist beliefs (especially amongst the virulent and poorer ones) blind them to the other exploitation they suffer through (for instance, poor whites and blacks in the South after the Civil War were starting to realize how similar their plights under the rich ruling class were, so the ruling class fostered racist paranoia into the poor whites to break up their class solidarity. Trump is doing the same thing by bleating on and on about how Mexicans are supposedly taking our jobs or how Muslims want to kill us all).

I am racist as hell often. I have very few black characters in my stories for instance. It's a character flaw but it doesn't make me a bad person or devoid of any redemption.

That's the thing about culture. You're born into it and steeped in it every day until it becomes a silent and inextricable part of you. Just like how people aren't often away of the true grammatical complexity of their native language, they also aren't aware of how many ingrained cultural beliefs they have and express without thinking about it. Participating in a cultural institution doesn't make you a monster--it's impossible not to participate in your own culture. Even those who blatantly reject it (such as radical leftists) were still born into it and will never escape it.

Finally the problem with defining racism as solely "prejudice" is that said prejudice is useless without cultural power. Note how for instance Trump is blatantly racist towards Hispanics and Muslims, yet no one does anything about it. Sure, many people decry him, but he still had the cultural privilege of going onto a nationally-broadcasted podium and being that racist. No one could ever get up and say "white people are taking all of the jobs for non-whites!" on national television. Said person would never even be allowed near the podium.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:09 pm 
Smeric
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Chagen wrote:
My point is that American society is structurally and socially designed to advantage certain races, and thus people are silently advantaged and disadvantaged from this. Note that everyone participates in this. We are all racist in some way. PoC are often racist towards each other--hell, they're often racist towards their own race! And white people are also hurt by this racism in certain ways. They can't express interest in other cultures without being mocked. They are often discouraged from having interracial relationships. Their racist beliefs (especially amongst the virulent and poorer ones) blind them to the other exploitation they suffer through (for instance, poor whites and blacks in the South after the Civil War were starting to realize how similar their plights under the rich ruling class were, so the ruling class fostered racist paranoia into the poor whites to break up their class solidarity. Trump is doing the same thing by bleating on and on about how Mexicans are supposedly taking our jobs or how Muslims want to kill us all).
If you wrote this instead of that post, I wouldn't have even entered the discussion. I've raised my specific problems with what you wrote and I also agree with all of the arguments raised by thetha here.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:21 am 
Šriftom
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Chagen wrote:
Travis B. wrote:
The thing about this attitude is that it alienates white people who might be supportive by explicitly grouping them with racist whites. How is one supposed to sympathize with and support people who are racist against oneself and who treat one as the oppressor regardless of what one has done or not done?

(Sorry, to me racism means racial prejudice.)


The problem here is that you think I am considering you equal to a crazy neo-nazi. That's not true. My point is that American society is structurally and socially designed to advantage certain races, and thus people are silently advantaged and disadvantaged from this. Note that everyone participates in this. We are all racist in some way. PoC are often racist towards each other--hell, they're often racist towards their own race! And white people are also hurt by this racism in certain ways. They can't express interest in other cultures without being mocked. They are often discouraged from having interracial relationships. Their racist beliefs (especially amongst the virulent and poorer ones) blind them to the other exploitation they suffer through (for instance, poor whites and blacks in the South after the Civil War were starting to realize how similar their plights under the rich ruling class were, so the ruling class fostered racist paranoia into the poor whites to break up their class solidarity. Trump is doing the same thing by bleating on and on about how Mexicans are supposedly taking our jobs or how Muslims want to kill us all).

See, this I can agree with.

Chagen wrote:
I am racist as hell often. I have very few black characters in my stories for instance. It's a character flaw but it doesn't make me a bad person or devoid of any redemption.

I particularly objected to the terms fascist and white supremacist - there is a difference between having some underlying racism and being one of those things. Fascism, as you should know, refers to not just any right-wing ideology but to a very specific group of far right-wing ideologies which I highly doubt most Americans support. Likewise, white supremacism, as you also should know, refers to not merely being racist but rather believing that there should be a racial hierarchy with white people at the top. Had you simply said that most white Americans are racist - or better yet, that most Americans are racist - or even better yet, that most people are racist, I would not have objected so.

Chagen wrote:
That's the thing about culture. You're born into it and steeped in it every day until it becomes a silent and inextricable part of you. Just like how people aren't often away of the true grammatical complexity of their native language, they also aren't aware of how many ingrained cultural beliefs they have and express without thinking about it. Participating in a cultural institution doesn't make you a monster--it's impossible not to participate in your own culture. Even those who blatantly reject it (such as radical leftists) were still born into it and will never escape it.

This I do not disagree with, aside from that I would prefer to refer to many or most people rather than all people when speaking of groups, because I prefer to avoid universal statements when it comes to things such as races, ethnicities, genders, etc.

Chagen wrote:
Finally the problem with defining racism as solely "prejudice" is that said prejudice is useless without cultural power. Note how for instance Trump is blatantly racist towards Hispanics and Muslims, yet no one does anything about it. Sure, many people decry him, but he still had the cultural privilege of going onto a nationally-broadcasted podium and being that racist. No one could ever get up and say "white people are taking all of the jobs for non-whites!" on national television. Said person would never even be allowed near the podium.

I use racism to mean racial prejudice because this is appears to be the common definition used by most people. It may be tempting to redefine terms for polemical value, but I prefer to avoid this. In this case, the problem here is that by defining racism to mean the combination of racial prejudice and power, it implies that racial prejudice is okay when held by people without power, because racism has more strongly negative connotations than racial prejudice.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:23 am 
Smeric
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Chagen, I am speechless.

Thank you so much for going into a discussion of racism in so much depth.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:50 am 
Avisaru
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Chagen wrote:
No and such fake crime statistics are often used by neo-nazis such as Stormfront and /pol/ to recruit people to their ranks.

Frankly I find it hard to imagine there more violent deaths of blacks by police than whatever other murders. And it certainly doesn't justify the usage of the word 'genocide'.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:00 pm 
Šriftom
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Chagen wrote:
No and such fake crime statistics are often used by neo-nazis such as Stormfront and /pol/ to recruit people to their ranks.

To be honest, the statistics saying that black people are most likely to be killed by other black people are not fake statistics. And it is easy to explain why they are real: people are more likely to know people of their own race than people of other races, and people are more likely to be killed by people they do know than by people they don't. So it follows that it shouild not be in the least surprising that black people are most likely to be killed by black people (and likewise that white people are most likely to be killed by white people, contrary to the assertion of many a racist).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:29 pm 
Smeric
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dwk wrote:
Chagen wrote:
No and such fake crime statistics are often used by neo-nazis such as Stormfront and /pol/ to recruit people to their ranks.

Frankly I find it hard to imagine there more violent deaths of blacks by police than whatever other murders. And it certainly doesn't justify the usage of the word 'genocide'.
I don't know about statistics on violent deaths, but genocide definitely doesn't fit. Genocide is a much more massive scale operation: an attempt to eliminate (an) entire ethnic/religious group(s) by murder. The racist killings of a huge amount of black people are not genocide, as neither the goal nor the result is a complete or even almost complete elimination black people.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:49 pm 
Šriftom
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mèþru wrote:
dwk wrote:
Chagen wrote:
No and such fake crime statistics are often used by neo-nazis such as Stormfront and /pol/ to recruit people to their ranks.

Frankly I find it hard to imagine there more violent deaths of blacks by police than whatever other murders. And it certainly doesn't justify the usage of the word 'genocide'.
I don't know about statistics on violent deaths, but genocide definitely doesn't fit. Genocide is a much more massive scale operation: an attempt to eliminate (an) entire ethnic/religious group(s) by murder. The racist killings of a huge amount of black people are not genocide, as neither the goal nor the result is a complete or even almost complete elimination black people.

Also, claiming that police killings of unarmed black people is genocide greatly minimizes what genocide is. According to this 102 unarmed black people were killed by police in the US in 2015. For the sake of comparison, the total black population of the US on July 1, 2013 was 45 million. With this in mind, this does not seem anywhere near genocide at least with respect to outcome. And there is no evidence that police killings of unarmed black people are genocidal in intent. Just because killings are racist in motivation does not make them genocidal unless they are eliminationist in intent or outcome, as mèþru said. Also, compare this with the total body count for Chicago this year as of today, which is 654 homicides. This shows that there are far more homicides in even just one major urban center this year just up to today than there were unarmed black people killed by police in the entire US last year.

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