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zompist bboard • View topic - Discrimination (from garden path thread and elsewhere)

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:37 am 
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:46 am 
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:25 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:18 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:32 pm 
Avisaru
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I see, this is where we redefine "conservative" and "liberal" to mean whatever the hell we want so we can call each other names. I'll leave you to it. I don't know what you think atheists even have to do with this, either.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 8:24 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:12 pm 
Avisaru
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You seem to be making a bunch of unwarranted assumptions about me. What gives you the idea that I'm not aware that if I had been raised in a different social context I'd have different opinions? I don't think I'm right because these happen to be the opinions I've always had, I've actually put thought into them over time and they've changed as I've acquired knowledge. And I could still be wrong, of course, since I surely don't know everything.

I used "colonialism" because it's a specific ridiculous claim I've seen regarding FGM. Specific, because "colonialism" has a specific meaning: that of one country colonizing, exerting political control over, and exploiting another place. So Britain conquering India (as well as a large number of other places), and European countries exploiting Africa are certainly colonialism. Probably Roman expansion would be colonialism too, though that's not what most people are referring to when they use the word. But I don't really see how the rest of your examples can be classed as "colonialism". Imperialism, maybe (except for freeing the slaves, which just seems kind of like you through it in randomly), but that's a different thing. Colonialism was bad because the specific thing that that word describes is bad, not because "colonialism" means "bad stuff". Anti-FGM is certainly Western, but not everything that is Western is colonialism, or imperialism, or bad. I'm sure some people who oppose FGM have imperialist attitudes about it, it's kind of inevitable really, but there are plenty of arguments against it that aren't imperialist.

As far as gay cake goes, I understand why these bakers feel the way they do. I do. I just think they're wrong. It's unreasonable to expect that you'll be able to convince everyone else of your opinion, so in the absence of that, it is best to do your best and make laws to stop the problem.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:05 pm 
Sumerul
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0) Should the government prohibit a progressive artist from refusing to paint a pro-Hitler mural?
1) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. artist from refusing to paint a pro-gay marriage Obergefell v. Hodges victory mural?
2) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. artist from refusing to paint a scene of two men getting married?
3) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. carpenter from refusing to make a custom-ordered cabinet decorated with pro-gay-marriage motifs?
4) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. baker from refusing to make a gay wedding cake?
5) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. baker from refusing to refuse to make a generic wedding cake for a gay marriage?
6) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. baker from refusing to sell a generic cake to a gay couple?
7) Should the government prohibit a Christian, Muslim, etc. barber from refusing to cut a gay couple's hair?

Presumably, everyone agrees that the answer to 0) is no. Many people, though certainly not all, would say the answer to 7) is yes. I would guess that a 'yes' to a question with a lower number implies a 'yes' to all questions with higher numbers. For people who answer no to 0) and yes to 7), what's the point at which your answers change from 'no' to 'yes', and why does it change there?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:35 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:51 am 
Smeric
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5 and below yes, 4 and above no. The bottom three does not require someone to endorse the group they don't agree with.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 8:04 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:43 am 
Boardlord
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Everybody who has suddenly become very concerned about religious freedom, what about these cases?

-- a Muslim group wishes to build a mosque in your neighborhood
-- a Muslim group wishes to build a mosque in the US near the NY World Trade Center
-- a Muslim wishes to speak Arabic in a public place
-- Muslims fleeing dictators and/or terrorists in Syria would like to move to your country
-- Muslims who think they'd like it here would like to move to your country
-- Muslims want to wear the traditional clothing of their countries in public places / schools

In the US, the people who think their religious liberty is restricted because a gay person might stumble into their bakery tend to be the very same people who oppose all these things.

This isn't to say you can't be highly sympathetic to that baker. But to look around for problems religious people face, and focus on completely imaginary cases (government-mandated pro-Hitler murals or gay sex cakes) rather than the actual problems of a real religious minority... well, it seems like a curious narrowing of focus.


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:50 am 
Sumerul
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The biggest problem with the religion angle, is that the people claiming their religion has a prohibition against x, y or z, are typically the same people who on a personal level have problems with x, y or z. Perhaps for these people, their religion is actually where their morality comes from, and whatever their religion dictates, is what they vehemently believe is right.


JAL


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 10:29 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 11:46 am 
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:03 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:14 pm 
Smeric
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Well bringing up the anti-gay vs. pro-religious-freedom* argument sure kicked up a shistorm. :P

*(And before you say it, yes I get that it's not necessarily only about religious freedom, but this is the only way I have ever seen it framed).


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:44 pm 
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Progress, my good man, progress. It requires the savages be civilized, and so they are For Great Justice.

white man's burden and so on

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 5:37 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:18 pm 
Sumerul
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I.e. it's not colonialism if I agree with it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 6:35 pm 
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– The Gospel of Thomas


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:24 pm 
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