Venting thread that still excludes eddy (2)

[rotting bones]

Hopefully that disperses any lingering pollution.

Anyway, the main reason the right's characterization of the left being aloof and out of touch sticks is that for incredibly stupid reasons, the left deliberately acts in ways that can be interpreted as being aloof and out of touch even when it isn't. As far as I can tell, people on the left aren't attaching the "aloof and out of touch" interpretation to their actions. They affect attitudes like that because they think it will make them look superior in a social context.

Stupid as this is, it can happen in a totally innocent way. To cite an example that I have actually been on the receiving end of, say some guy makes an observation about a pattern he's noticed. Instead of refuting it through argument, someone on the left might ask them to cite peer reviewed research corroborating their findings. This is not how genuine human beings interact in real life.

Now, if you were to cite peer reviewed research refuting the observation, that is a perfectly legitimate move, but who asks you for your peer review credentials in ordinary conversation? Out of touch dodos, that's who. Even saying "the pattern you noticed doesn't hold good in my personal experience" makes more sense than asking someone who has just noticed a pattern for peer review. Doesn't this person know the order in which peer review works? FIRST you notice a pattern, THEN you perform an experiment, and FINALLY you succeed or fail to get it peer reviewed. Knowledge doesn't trickle down from the gods of peer review like manna from heaven. If people refused to notice patterns, then nothing would ever get peer reviewed in the first place! But it feels really stupid to explain the difference between top-down and bottom-up knowledge generation procedures. Do you really have to explain obvious shit like that to people? An alternative interpretation is that your opponent is expecting you to deliver a witty zinger instead of a plainspoken argument, which can be annoying.

This view is reinforced when people on the left laugh at you for challenging their opinions instead of bothering to state the reasons for why they hold them, a phenomenon which has been unfortunately common in recent times, possibly thanks to the posturings of the anti-reason pro-emotion left. What fanatics of emotionalism fail to consider is that sometimes, "expressing your true emotions" like Trump hurts people in ways that we want to avoid, and that is the reason why people are less than enthused about wearing their hearts on their sleeves when dealing with preexisting situations beyond their control. To avoid real life examples, I was once being emotionally authentic on an online forum, and someone else ended up getting banned in the end. This came out of the blue for me, but it was super obvious in hindsight that chilling out might have defused the situation.

(An alternative might be to tell them you are feeling too emotionally drained at the moment to muster a rational response. People can understand that, but not being laughed at.)

Sometimes the left's tactics actually work as intended, but sometimes they backfire. Imagine you are responsible for collecting funds for the right. Which possible interpretation is in your interest to emphasize?

[jmcd]

While modern Halloween comes from America, traditional Halloween comes from Scotland.
https://www.visitscotland.com/blog/events/halloween/

I guess my current lifestyle is that of an internet addict.

Recognition is the first step to healing. i.e. take this problem seriously.

[mèþru]

Modern Halloween, as with most American holidays, is an amalgamation of many traditions from various parts of Europe.

[rotting bones]

Recognition is the first step to healing. i.e. take this problem seriously.

Thanks. I nearly bled to death through my nose two times in succession in 2006. Whether it's because of emotional trauma or brain damage, since then I haven't been able to remember what I'm doing or concentrate on what I'm reading like I used to.

At the root of the internet addiction is the fact that regaining these lost abilities is pretty much the first necessary thing I "want out of life" at this point. But the addiction gets in the way of recovery. Also, the addiction is possibly caused by the problem to some degree. It's a deadlock of formalization.

To be honest, this is why Slavoj Zizek's philosophy resonates with me even though healthy people hate him. Zizek talks about how the object of desire is constituted by its loss. If I hadn't lost my ability to read technical subjects all the way through in one sitting and remember them for months afterwards, I wouldn't be ruining what opportunities are open to me trying to recover those abilities.

There was another point I wanted to make using Zizek's philosophy, but I forgot what it was. See the problem? I swear I wasn't like this before.

Assuming I didn't misunderstand his ranting, Zizek recommends trying to see the liberating potential in the loss of the object of desire. I don't think this works in my case. I have never wanted to be anything other than a researcher. This is why I'm trying my best to become the third rate researcher that is still within my abilities. This goal has nothing to say about my internet addiction one way or another, so I'm not doing anything about it.

Passing through a Hegelian sublation, everything is as it should be in the present situation. The real is the rational. Hegel says the owl of Minerva only takes wing at night. Hegel was able to articulate the Prussian state as the final goal of rationality, meaning Prussia's time was done.

This means that if I have been able to comprehensively and accurately articulate the rationality immanent in the present state of affairs, then I am already beyond the problem insofar as philosophy has the power to carry me. The days of a fully articulated system are numbered. A system doesn't work when it fully understands itself from within. Hopefully.

I'm open to better ideas.

[jmcd]

I offer the idea of turning your computer off before midnight, and going straight to a good book after breakfast and meditation.

[rotting bones]

I offer the idea of turning your computer off before midnight, and going straight to a good book after breakfast and meditation.

Nah. Each to his own, but I believe in emotional excess moderated by reason alone as a positive value, with minimal affective training like meditation. Mainly because I run on brute force and determination like Caliborn. I need that because of the life I lead. I wouldn't have time for meditation right now because I've slacked off all semester. I had a presentation today, which I cobbled together in a few hours. I had to survey dozens of papers related to the main paper to put it together. I studied a whole new subtopic in math I didn't know about yesterday. I was lucky everything clicked. The professor said he liked my presentation. I explained more than I was supposed to, and everything was correct AFAIK, but still, I hope he was serious. Now I have a week to polish off two projects and study for an exam apart from my usual workload. I can probably pull it off. I mean, the week before last I finished one of my classmates' two semester thesis in a week because he colonized my apartment and wouldn't leave until I had. Believe me, or don't. I don't care. He hadn't done any of the work, so I was surprised at how well it worked out in the end. I spent at least three days going down blind alleys before I saw how to pull it all together. His advisor accepted it too. But my classmate said he didn't think it would take the whole week to get it done, the bastard. Now I don't feel as guilty I finished watching Rick & Morty Season 3 in some of the time I was supposed to be working on his project. The Ricklantis Mixup was a great episode. Anyway, I hope my own stuff goes as well as his. I need the confidence right now.

[Pole, the]

You seem pretty well functioning, even if less able than you used to.

[rotting bones]

I'm not sure I'd describe coasting on stubbornness and undying umbrage as ability, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Ryusenshi]

My landlord is asking me for my yearly water bill... and it's a ludicrous amount, more than 4000 euros. My usual bill is 200 to 300 euros: I live on my own, in an apartment, have no washing machine, and never take baths.

There's no leak that I know of, the water meter seems to stop when I'm not drawing any water... I have absolutely no clue to what's going on.

[Ryusenshi]

Aaaaaaand once again a package went through an "attempted delivery" weeks ago, no one warned me about it, and now nobody knows where my package is. The post office can be very annoying.

[Pole, the]

Aaaaaaand once again a package went through an "attempted delivery" weeks ago, no one warned me about it, and now nobody knows where my package is. The post office can be very annoying.

I didn't know the Polish Post manages deliveries in France as well. :D

[jmcd]

I offer the idea of turning your computer off before midnight, and going straight to a good book after breakfast and meditation.

Nah. Each to his own, but I believe in emotional excess moderated by reason alone as a positive value, with minimal affective training like meditation. Mainly because I run on brute force and determination like Caliborn. I need that because of the life I lead. I wouldn't have time for meditation right now because I've slacked off all semester. I had a presentation today, which I cobbled together in a few hours. I had to survey dozens of papers related to the main paper to put it together. I studied a whole new subtopic in math I didn't know about yesterday. I was lucky everything clicked. The professor said he liked my presentation. I explained more than I was supposed to, and everything was correct AFAIK, but still, I hope he was serious. Now I have a week to polish off two projects and study for an exam apart from my usual workload. I can probably pull it off. I mean, the week before last I finished one of my classmates' two semester thesis in a week because he colonized my apartment and wouldn't leave until I had. Believe me, or don't. I don't care. He hadn't done any of the work, so I was surprised at how well it worked out in the end. I spent at least three days going down blind alleys before I saw how to pull it all together. His advisor accepted it too. But my classmate said he didn't think it would take the whole week to get it done, the bastard. Now I don't feel as guilty I finished watching Rick & Morty Season 3 in some of the time I was supposed to be working on his project. The Ricklantis Mixup was a great episode. Anyway, I hope my own stuff goes as well as his. I need the confidence right now.

Changes to your life needn't take time out of your day. Even just a minute a day can work wonders.

[Salmoneus]

Aaaaaaand once again a package went through an "attempted delivery" weeks ago, no one warned me about it, and now nobody knows where my package is. The post office can be very annoying.

I didn't know the Polish Post manages deliveries in France as well.

Fortunately, the Royal Mail hardly ever loses deliveries.

That's why companies send everything through private companies instead, who do "lose" things. Yodel have basically "lost" every parcel we've had "delivered" through them for over ten years now, including times when they've said outright that they handed the parcel to us. Other times, they've said they've "left" the parcel in a particular place that doesn't apply to our house, and we've actually driven around every house nearby to ask at every single one for the parcel and no-one had seen it; on one occasion, we drove to every house with the same name as ours anywhere near our town, to try to find it.
But the other companies are almost as bad.

[Vijay]

Aaaaaaand once again a package went through an "attempted delivery" weeks ago, no one warned me about it, and now nobody knows where my package is. The post office can be very annoying.

I didn't know the Polish Post manages deliveries in France as well.

Maybe that's where his package is!

[Ryusenshi]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I've finally had the time to go to the post office... and the package went back to the US this very morning, because it had been "unclaimed" for two weeks. Of course, it wouldn't've stayed unclaimed if you guys had bothered to tell me it was here in the first place.

And, of course, it had to be sent back just a day before I could do something about it. If I wasn't a firm believer in Hanlon's Razor, I would think they did it on purpose.

[rotting bones]

Changes to your life needn't take time out of your day. Even just a minute a day can work wonders.

I didn't want to make this about other people, but the fact of the matter is that I've talked to groups that have practiced meditation for years. Like every other group, they are not a happy bunch behind the scenes, with some exceptions. This is also true of people who pray regularly.

I've also studied technical manuals dealing with Tibetan analytical meditation. Look, I agree that doing wrong things can bring short term benefit. Cutting in line can get you things faster. Dumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere can make you richer. Manipulating your emotions and believing things we know to be wrong or incomplete like the Tibetan interpretation of logic can temporarily make you more functional. (Not sure how much detail is appropriate in my explanation. Here's a superior method of induction, eg: https://arbital.com/p/bayes_rule_guide/)

What all of these practices have in common is that none of them are sustainable. Countries that practiced meditation were not good places to live in medieval times. A society where these practices became commonplace would fall apart. The earth is now in the process of doing just that thanks to the lobbying of the political right that has allied itself with conservative religion, which sells otherworldly hopes in exchange for the only life we know to be real.

Insofar as science says these practices bring short term benefit, it is accurate. Insofar as science recommends these practices for sustainable growth, I know for a fact that scientists are being taken in by a fad. This is why I'm not going to pray, meditate, or take up similar practices. (Though traditional logics are of course based on some good ideas, which we should not throw out with the bathwater.)

[jmcd]

I don't think meditation is necessarily associated with prayer or Tibetan logic or any such thing. 'The Willpower Instinct' by Kelly McGonigal is more relevant to my meditation than anything remotely religious.

Automatically associating meditation with religion is also not necessarily appropriate because of the threads of religion which actively oppose meditation as something heathen (which is something I have previously seen among certain Christians online).

[Salmoneus]

Automatically associating meditation with religion is also not necessarily appropriate because of the threads of religion which actively oppose meditation as something heathen (which is something I have previously seen among certain Christians online).

Ironic, given the importance of meditation in traditional Christian practice.

[Pole, the]

Automatically associating meditation with religion is also not necessarily appropriate because of the threads of religion which actively oppose meditation as something heathen (which is something I have previously seen among certain Christians online).

Doesn't “heathen” include “the wrong kind of religious” (as opposed to “non-religious”) here?

[Vijay]

Automatically associating meditation with religion is also not necessarily appropriate because of the threads of religion which actively oppose meditation as something heathen (which is something I have previously seen among certain Christians online).

Doesn't “heathen” include “the wrong kind of religious” (as opposed to “non-religious”) here?

I thought "heathen" always meant "anything/anyone who isn't Christian, unless I'm Portuguese or Spanish from the 16th century or something, in which case it means anything/anyone who isn't specifically Roman Catholic."

[rotting bones]

I don't think meditation is necessarily associated with prayer or Tibetan logic or any such thing. 'The Willpower Instinct' by Kelly McGonigal is more relevant to my meditation than anything remotely religious.

Automatically associating meditation with religion is also not necessarily appropriate because of the threads of religion which actively oppose meditation as something heathen (which is something I have previously seen among certain Christians online).

Sorry, I talked about Tibetan meditation because scientists studying meditation routinely use Tibetan monks as test subjects, but I can see how that might make it sound like I'm arguing meditation is bad because it's religious. Another reason I used that example is because I like Tibetan analytical meditation best among the meditation practices I know of, and I was trying to steelman meditation. (If you're interested, I started with this book (pdf) and looked up the references.)

I will look into your recommendation once my week is over. In what ways would you say your practice is better than Tibetan meditation regarding the points I raised? Before you answer, allow me restate parts of my argument.

First the evidence:

1. Long-term happiness levels are known to be determined by genetic and epigenetic factors. It may be possible to outrun them in a single generation, but that would be no mean feat.

2. Based on experience, I'm skeptical of the efficacy of meditation in that respect. Societies centered on meditation are often unjust. There are also endless scandals surrounding them, like the New Kadampa Tradition, Jonangpa and such.

Then the reason:

3. Did you hear about the time the Dalai Lama had a public outburst where he expressed doubts about the effectiveness of nonviolence in dealing with China? Am I the only one thinking "emotional repression"? Nonviolence is specific to Buddhist doctrine, but in general, manipulating your emotions to make you okay with things you should not be okay with is the quality that makes religion bad in the first place.

4. This reason applies to meditation as well. A society that relies on meditation will tend to use it as an anodyne, and thereby avoid restructuring itself to make it more just. This is the same thing theism does with prayer. I claim this is what we see in societies that routinely practice meditation.

To put it another way: In one way or another, "Change yourself to fit the world," is the message shared by all meditative practices popular in modern societies. That is why societies where meditation is commonplace are unjust, and it's the reason I don't believe they will ever be reliably just. The way things are right now, the world is a relentless optimizer of resource distribution. If you ask for less, others will continue to squeeze you dry until you protest. Changing the system to prevent anyone from perpetrating injustice anywhere is the only solution to this problem. Don't make yourself feel better: Protest global injustice!

To conclude, these are some of the reasons why I doubt meditation will benefit humanity in the long run. Let me know if it still doesn't make sense, which it might not because I'm a bit out of it right now.

[jmcd]

@rotting bones:
I will read into Tibetan meditation practises (maybe later in the week).

As far as I am concerned, the main benefits of meditation involve focus/concentration; it encourages me to actually contribute to my long-term goals rather than being distracted.

You have mentioned a few times 'societies centered on meditation' or similar expressions. What do you mean by this? Which societies would be examples of this? To which extent would meditation be widespread in such a society?

I had not heard about the Dalai Lama's outburst, no. I am certainly sceptical of self-immolation as a tactic. This practise is not really non-violence even, as it is violence against oneself.

In any case, I think "Change yourself to fit the person you want to be" might be better, and more in line with my ideas.

Changing the system to prevent anyone from perpetrating injustice anywhere is the only solution to this problem. Don't make yourself feel better: Protest global injustice!

Yes.

@Sal: Indeed, which is why the fundies in question are not nearly as traditional as they think they are.

[rotting bones]

You have mentioned a few times 'societies centered on meditation' or similar expressions. What do you mean by this? Which societies would be examples of this? To which extent would meditation be widespread in such a society?

I'm talking about societies that honored or still honor Asian meditation traditions as the legitimate means to resolve personal issues. If the correct response to injustice is to meditate your cares away, then people seeking lasting social change are lowlife scum. This is the common perception in societies where either traditional meditation or theism occupies that position in the ideological constellation. One Tibetan lama put it like this: The purpose of Buddhist training is like putting on shoes once you discover is world is full of sharp rocks instead of covering the world in leather. But covering the world in leather is precisely what makes societies livable.

In my experience, the practice of meditation is not exotic at all even in householder life, and yet there is a lot of injustice in Indian society. Some people quibble over differences between the monastic versus householder lifestyles. That is why I used NKT and Jonang as examples rather than rattling off names of countries like Tibet, Thailand and premodern Japan.

Meditation is common practice in Indian monastic institutions. Injustice and abuse pervade monastic life, some of it even originating there. At the very least, this demonstrates that meditation becoming common practice cannot be immensely powerful at promoting well-being, an idea that a lot of its practitioners endorse. The Buddha says I should accept his teachings after burning, cutting and rubbing them, so I'm doing just that.

Zizek says people with sublime, transcendent, poetic ideas can use them as a fetish to excuse their horrible actions in real life. This seems true at least in some cases.

I had not heard about the Dalai Lama's outburst, no. I am certainly sceptical of self-immolation as a tactic. This practise is not really non-violence even, as it is violence against oneself.

It's a somewhat dated reference. I believe that was after he recovered from a heart attack, underwent a surgery or something like that, so his guard was really down at the time.

In any case, I think "Change yourself to fit the person you want to be" might be better, and more in line with my ideas.

Can't think of an Indian or Chinese tradition corresponding to that interpretation. These traditional societies were structurally feeble, and hence terrified of personal empowerment.

Taoism might be the closest, but only superficially. I have read many Taoist texts when I was bored, and they mostly talk about nourishing and/or mortifying various germs of life and cycles of energy within the body to achieve immortality. Like Buddhists are fixated on the practice of valid knowing leading to total omniscience, Taoists are obsessed with healthy living leading to literal immortality, a goal that I find even harder to believe is achievable without technological aid.

I don't know about China, but modern interpretations like yours are not what Indians usually mean when they refer to meditation. So the stuff I said does not necessarily apply to the thing you wanted me to do. Thanks for the recommendation. I will look into it afterwards. Notice however, that if you can reinvent meditation in this way, there may be nothing stopping people from applying the same treatment to theism.

[zompist]

I'm talking about societies that honored or still honor Asian meditation traditions as the legitimate means to resolve personal issues. If the correct response to injustice is to meditate your cares away, then people seeking lasting social change are lowlife scum.

Oh come now, that isn't even what Buddhism says. Compassion in the world is a Buddhist virtue, and you can certainly be a Buddhist king rather than a Buddhist monk. Or a Buddhist bandit, such as Zhu Yuanzhang, who ended up as the first Ming emperor. The monks would say their path is superior, but they would, wouldn't they? In Mahayana, you don't even have to be a monk to become a bodhisattva.

It's true enough that premodern Buddhist societies were mostly miserable. So were premodern non-Buddhist societies. So are a lot of modern societies. It seems like a stretch to blame it on meditation.

You can certainly make some kind of case that a religion that focuses on otherworldly rewards will ignore social justice. Religion can be a hugely conservative force. But it can also be a revolutionary force... indeed, before socialism/communism, it was usually the inspiration for revolts and social justice movements, both in the East and the West.

Anyway, I have no idea if meditation works, but the Buddhist style is at least not tied to 'religion' per se. It doesn't so far as I know have any required metaphysics at all.

[rotting bones]

It is absolutely true that compassion is central to Buddhism, even compassion towards aggressors. Buddhism undoubtedly tells you to be kind towards others, even to the point of sacrificing your life for them. However, as an orthodox Buddhist, you cannot demand that someone else make the tiniest sacrifice for you. If a lion is attacking a lamb, the Buddhist solution would involve feeding yourself to the lion. You'd probably wake up in a paradise the next instant. If you don't believe me, read the story of Asanga and the maggots. In Buddhism, you can only tell others that if they were to make sacrifices, that would be good karma for them. After that, only each individual can make whatever sacrifices they see fit. Buddhism is so ultra-individualistic that not one orthodox Buddhist society I know of has ever tried anything we would recognize as emancipatory politics prior to Western contact the way Wang Mang or Master Moh did. After Western contact, there have been humanistic Buddhists in Taiwan whom I would support, for example. Ironically, one of the founders of that movement had been inspired by Western ideas and as a result, rejected Buddhism as it was actually practiced when he was young. He said in his own words that that he opposed Western values to Buddhism as it was actually practiced. Later in life, he was surprised to discover that Buddhist texts can be given a reading surprisingly compatible with the values he had admired in Western culture. Historically, the only radical politics I know of that Buddhists have participated in were theocracy-oriented movements like the Vajrayana radicals in Tibet and Japan. I claim meditation is the missing link that helps you maintain mental equilibrium within a worldview like that. Without meditation to help you maintain a sense of distance from real life, such an ideological formation would implode.