Most beautiful/ugliest languages

[clawgrip]

Something something "the exception that proves the rule" -Eddy

I dislike when people misuse that expression. You are in fact begging the question when you say that. You claim that this exception, "He likes the sound of Italian," proves the existence of a certain rule, "His political beliefs influence his aesthetic opinions on languages" (despite its apparent contradiction of that rule), but the only evidence that could suggest it is an exception of any kind is the presupposition of the existence of the rule it is supposed to be proving.

[Rui]

Something something "the exception that proves the rule" -Eddy

I dislike when people misuse that expression. You are in fact begging the question when you say that. You claim that this exception, "He likes the sound of Italian," proves the existence of a certain rule, "His political beliefs influence his aesthetic opinions on languages" (despite its apparent contradiction of that rule), but the only evidence that could suggest it is an exception of any kind is the presupposition of the existence of the rule it is supposed to be proving.

This is Eddylogic here, actual logic doesn't apply.

[clawgrip]

If you want to antagonize him with spurious logic, I suppose that is your prerogative.

[Legion]

Just because this thread sucks is no reason to turn it into an Eddythread, so please shut up.

[Imralu]

I think any language can sound horrible, depending on who speaks it and how. Most languages can sound nice.

I used to think I loved the sound of Russian more than most other languages, basically because I love [ʒ] and palatal sounds, until one day I was watching the Russian news and it was then followed by French news and I preferred the flow of French. What I don't like about French is the recognisable romance words ... for some reason that is what bothers me about romance languages, so I suppose that would make Breton more appealing to me than French, but I haven't heard enough to know for sure. Anyway, I heard my French neighbours having a fight one day and it sounded utterly disgusting.

I'm quite fond of German (despite its almost complete lack of [ʒ]). I've always found it sounded more interesting than other popular languages to learn. It always frustrates me when people think it's ugly, which is something they tend to base on the presence of [x~χ]. Fair enough if you don't like the sound but it's not that common in German, and most people pronounce it without running bubbles of air through their phlegm.

A guy I used to work with asked me if I would like to live in [ˌχaχənˈbaχənˌχaχ] (pronounced with added phlegm ... I can't find the IPA diacritic right now). When explained that syllables never begin with [x~χ] in (standard) German, and that it's not even a terribly common sound, he just called me a nerd. My manager at the same place asked me why I had learnt German instead of French. ('French girls are so sexy' ... he said, and to shock him I said 'Yeah, but German girls will let you shit on them.' and then I walked away.) A few months later, I served an elderly German man who came to the shop every now and then and I spoke in German to him. My manager walked by while I was speaking German and later asked me if I had been speaking French. Great moment!

French is every bit as guttural as German, but I think it sounds 'prettier' because it has more of a flow (more evenly timed syllables, liaison and elision) whereas German can sound either clunky (especially when enunciated clearly by newsreaders with strong initial glottal stops) or kind of oompa-loompa-doompa (stress timing). I'm sure Hitler can take most of the blame for German's reputation as an ugly language. Dutch is far more throaty than German and also a bit more oompa-loompa-ijk, but people don't react to it the same way as German.

When people go on about German's [x~χ] I sometimes start rattling off the lyrics of a song and get them to count how many times I say it and they are ALWAYS surprised how low the count is (unless it's a song from Run Lola Run which has the line 'Ich brauch' dich doch auch nicht mehr als du mich'. Sometimes they count /r/ after a voiceless sound but I say 'No, that's /r/, and French has that sound too and everyone knows that's a beautiful language.' I can't remember what it was, but I came across a song once without any [x~χ], at least in one verse.

[Bryan]

We have done this so many times, so let's cut to the chase:

People think the less mainstream languages are beautiful. Mongolian often gets a look-in here. Of course, we are all aware that this is basically linguistic hipsterism, and a desire to be different, a nod-and-wink expression of solidarity to those who are also "in the know" about Chukchi's vowel harmonies. Also, for some obscure reason, Celtic languages are frequently perceived as being beautiful. This in spite of the scientifically proven fact that Irish sounds like somebody with a severe head cold chewing toffee, while Welsh simply sounds like somebody spitting.

The consensus is that French is pretty ugly. Personally, I disagree. Of course, as most of us are native speakers, we all agree that English sounds "boring" or "ugly". Somebody will make a stupid comment about "gutteral" languages, someone will refute that, and blah blah blah I just can't even anymore.

Eddy always claims that he finds the languages of his current targets of bigotry/political bugbears "ugly", hence the sudden appearence of Afrikaans. So he's easily predicted.

So, I'm assuming that we can happily close the thread now?

LOL! Maybe. But let me ruin it by NOT being a hipster.

I love: Swedish, Italian, Greek, Swahili

I like: Basque, Japanese, Afrikaans; Spanish can be alright.

I dislike:
Certain varieties of American English (but not deep south, incidentally, which I like a lot; I also like Boston English),
Slavic languages,
Arabic,
and most oriental languages (I think it's something to do with tone): Mandarin, Vietnamese.

I hate: Somali. It sounds like disgusting vomit. Sorry.

This is all just based on the sound system, incidentally: I happen to like Mandarin grammar.

[EDIT] Also, I would say that French is generally regarded as being extremely beautiful and sexy, not ugly. Who thinks it's ugly!?!??!

[din]

I do.

I'm surrounded by the language (part time), and it's interesting and all, and I've been studying it on and off for years, and I want to learn to speak it better, and I kinda need to anyway, but I don't think I'll ever find it a pleasant sounding language

[Bryan]

I do.

I'm surrounded by the language (part time), and it's interesting and all, and I've been studying it on and off for years, and I want to learn to speak it better, and I kinda need to anyway, but I don't think I'll ever find it a pleasant sounding language

Ya know what, after I typed that I kinda thought to myself: most common folk think French is incredibly beautiful and sexy, but I have heard several language nerds say they dislike it. What does that reveal...? Not sure. But personally I think French is okay, not that great, but I **DO** love english spoken with a French accent.

[Bryan]

Big question: what's the UGLIEST language. The stand-out worst-sounding? Really, I fucking HATE Somali. A lot of Somalis round here, and so I hear it a fair bit, and it just sounds like Arabic but with all the non-gutterals taken out. Akh ghabhgghhghhghgxxxxx AAAAAAAAARGH

[Nortaneous]

French sounds like the language of savages. Language nerds are, well, nerds, and generally either male or rather masculine. The people who spread the line about French being sexy are generally either teenage girls or people thinking about what teenage girls would like, and teenage girls don't have a good track record of not wanting to fuck savages. French also has the advantage of being spoken by white people, and white people who teenage girls will look favorably on even as far as white people go (the stereotype is of stuck-up fashion designers who chainsmoke, listen to electronic music, and don't shower), whereas the other languages that could compete (Arabic, Cantonese, Dutch) have the disadvantage of being spoken by people who are either civilized, not white, or both.

[----]

Big question: what's the UGLIEST language. The stand-out worst-sounding? Really, I fucking HATE Somali. A lot of Somalis round here, and so I hear it a fair bit, and it just sounds like Arabic but with all the non-gutterals taken out. Akh ghabhgghhghhghgxxxxx AAAAAAAAARGH

!Xóõ sounds extremely unpleasant to my ears, I'd say it's the ugliest language with respect to sound.

[Imralu]

I forgot to mention: I think Thai sounds really ugly, but also really cute. It's adorably hideous.

[Nooj]

My likes/dislikes are in large part made up of my stereotypes and ignorance. I haven't heard much Hebrew, but what I have heard doesn't appeal to me. But I'm sure that if I had Israeli friends, then I'd unsurprisingly start to like Hebrew. It's certainly what happened with French. I hear a lot of French people from Grenoble and Aix-en-Provence. Southern forms of French are awesome. Parisian still ticks me off. I grew to like Madrid or Barcelonan dialects of Spanish as well.

[Bryan]

French sounds like the language of savages. Language nerds are, well, nerds, and generally either male or rather masculine. The people who spread the line about French being sexy are generally either teenage girls or people thinking about what teenage girls would like, and teenage girls don't have a good track record of not wanting to fuck savages. French also has the advantage of being spoken by white people, and white people who teenage girls will look favorably on even as far as white people go (the stereotype is of stuck-up fashion designers who chainsmoke, listen to electronic music, and don't shower), whereas the other languages that could compete (Arabic, Cantonese, Dutch) have the disadvantage of being spoken by people who are either civilized, not white, or both.

Interesting.

All this talk is quite weird to me, as I've never really evaluated languages in terms of how I perceive the associated cultures. Surely what I like is... what I like because of how it is, not my preconceptions. This thread has taught me that I am more enlightened than most people. And for that, I thank you (and Dew).

[Bryan]

Big question: what's the UGLIEST language. The stand-out worst-sounding? Really, I fucking HATE Somali. A lot of Somalis round here, and so I hear it a fair bit, and it just sounds like Arabic but with all the non-gutterals taken out. Akh ghabhgghhghhghgxxxxx AAAAAAAAARGH

!Xóõ sounds extremely unpleasant to my ears, I'd say it's the ugliest language with respect to sound.

Got an audio link?

[Gulliver]

French sounds like the language of savages. Language nerds are, well, nerds, and generally either male or rather masculine. The people who spread the line about French being sexy are generally either teenage girls or people thinking about what teenage girls would like, and teenage girls don't have a good track record of not wanting to fuck savages. French also has the advantage of being spoken by white people, and white people who teenage girls will look favorably on even as far as white people go (the stereotype is of stuck-up fashion designers who chainsmoke, listen to electronic music, and don't shower), whereas the other languages that could compete (Arabic, Cantonese, Dutch) have the disadvantage of being spoken by people who are either civilized, not white, or both.

I slightly prefer the way women speak French than men speak it. It might be about voice pitching or something. A crisp middle-class northern French accent is a joy to behold.

I don't think Welsh is a particularly attractive languages. (Burly, rugby-playing, South Wales) Welsh men speaking English is pretty hawt, though.

[----]

Big question: what's the UGLIEST language. The stand-out worst-sounding? Really, I fucking HATE Somali. A lot of Somalis round here, and so I hear it a fair bit, and it just sounds like Arabic but with all the non-gutterals taken out. Akh ghabhgghhghhghgxxxxx AAAAAAAAARGH

!Xóõ sounds extremely unpleasant to my ears, I'd say it's the ugliest language with respect to sound.

Got an audio link?

Here's a story: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Langu ... 972_01.mp3
(It's in English first, then !Xóõ).

and here's more from that website: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/NMN/nmn.html

[Rui]

South African English <3

Also, I love clicks, but !Xóõ sure has a lot of them...(in most phrases it sounded like there was at least 1 per word)

[Imralu]

I don't think Welsh is a particularly attractive languages. (Burly, rugby-playing, South Wales) Welsh men speaking English is pretty hawt, though.

Got a video link?

[Bryan]

Hi Tieđđá,

cheers for that. I'll take a look when I get home!

[Gulliver]

I don't think Welsh is a particularly attractive languages. (Burly, rugby-playing, South Wales) Welsh men speaking English is pretty hawt, though.

Got a video link?

A video link to Welsh men? Err... spend and afternoon watching Torchwood and Ianto Jones. Actually, most of Torchwood is cacky crap but the Children of Earth miniseries is really good.

[Trailsend]

Surely what I like is... what I like because of how it is, not my preconceptions.

laaaawl!

[jmcd]

Figuring out if Eddy likes how a language sounds is really quite BASIC.
READY
10 LET G= racist rightists hellspwan from hell
20 IF uvulars OR pharyngeals OR epiglottals THEN GOTO 40
30 IF gemminates AND long vowels THEN GOTO 60 ELSE GOTO 10
40 PRINT "dislike".
50 IF speakers are G THEN GOTO 70 ELSE GOTO 40
60 PRINT "swoon"
70 PRINT "Evil, hideous language of the Colonizing Oppressors of Evil"
RUN

The reason that doesn't work is that 70 contains "Colonizing Oppressors" which too much resembles actual political thought of some kind.

All this talk is quite weird to me, as I've never really evaluated languages in terms of how I perceive the associated cultures. Surely what I like is... what I like because of how it is, not my preconceptions. This thread has taught me that I am more enlightened than most people. And for that, I thank you (and Dew).

Oh yeah? What do you think about Somalis then, Mr Rational Clarkson?

[Lyhoko Leaci]

Figuring out if Eddy likes how a language sounds is really quite BASIC.
READY
10 LET G= racist rightists hellspwan from hell
20 IF uvulars OR pharyngeals OR epiglottals THEN GOTO 40
30 IF gemminates AND long vowels THEN GOTO 60 ELSE GOTO 10
40 PRINT "dislike".
50 IF speakers are G THEN GOTO 70 ELSE GOTO 40
60 PRINT "swoon"
70 PRINT "Evil, hideous language of the Colonizing Oppressors of Evil"
RUN

The reason that doesn't work is that 70 contains "Colonizing Oppressors" which too much resembles actual political thought of some kind.

Plus, it's got bugs.

After fixing bugs: (Though leaving the "Colonizing Oppressors" part alone)
READY
10 LET G= racist rightists hellspwan from hell
20 IF uvulars OR pharyngeals OR epiglottals THEN GOTO 40
25 REM ELSE GOTO 10 starts an infinite loop, and 60 is otherwise ignored in original version.
30 IF gemminates AND long vowels THEN GOTO 70 ELSE GOTO 60
40 PRINT "dislike".
45 REM Possible infinite loop unless this jumps to end
50 GOTO 100
60 IF speakers are G THEN GOTO 90 ELSE GOTO 40
70 PRINT "swoon"
75 REM Needs break here, otherwise prints both lines 70 and 90.
80 GOTO 100
90 PRINT "Evil, hideous language of the Colonizing Oppressors of Evil"
100 END
RUN

The GOTO 100's could also be END statements themselves.

[Nortaneous]