Most beautiful/ugliest languages

[Imralu]

In general, I can't stand velar or uvular fricatives. They hurt my ears to listen to, and they hurt my throat to try and say.

Then you're not making velar or uvular fricatives.

Can you imagine if they did hurt your throat? There'd be entire nations where people would have really fucked up, calloused throats from doing it their whole lives.

I always find English speakers trying to pronounce [x] or [χ] end up with something more like hocking up phlegm, which I don't know how to transcribe. Is there an IPA diacritic for phlegm bubbles?

[Shrdlu]

There's actually a bush language in Africa where the speakers end up with a lump in their throat. This is documented because it also happened to a researcher that learnt the language for studying purposes.


I wish I could remember it's name.

[Aurora Rossa]

There's actually a bush language in Africa where the speakers end up with a lump in their throat. This is documented because it also happened to a researcher that learnt the language for studying purposes.

!Xóõ, although they have taken to calling it Taa now for some reason.

[Ambrisio]

If /x/ hurts the throat, so should English /k/, as the aspiration may result in a partial velar fricative.

[Shrdlu]

Eddy, did you listen to the Salish interview? What did you think?

[Aurora Rossa]

It sounds like it has a lot of lateral fricatives and /eu/, is what stands out most to me. Very interesting and different from what I am used to hearing. I have read some grammars of Salish languages and wondered how all those consonants actually sound in speech.

[Xephyr]

I have read some grammars of Salish languages.

orly

[Thry]

I speak Spanish and when I have a sore throat I hate saying words with [x]. Luckily I can get by without saying [x] IMD - actually I only say [x] occasionally.

And when I have a sore throat, I fucking hate Portuguese and French. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Shrdlu]

Don't quote me on this one or even ask for a source, but I have read a summary of a study which pointed to that speakers of German and Dutch have a statically higher rate of throat aliments, because of all the fricatives.

[Imralu]

I speak Spanish and when I have a sore throat I hate saying words with [x]. Luckily I can get by without saying [x] IMD - actually I only say [x] occasionally.

And when I have a sore throat, I fucking hate Portuguese and French. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I have a throat infection right now, and I have no problem speaking German ... Well, a few days ago I was having big problems speaking at all, but I noticed no difference between German and English.

Don't quote me on this one or even ask for a source, but I have read a summary of a study which pointed to that speakers of German and Dutch have a statically higher rate of throat aliments, because of all the fricatives.

... then again, maybe that's the reason why I have a throat infection.
... although German really only has the odd [x] or [χ] here and there, contrary to the popular stereotype. With the allophony of /r/ in French, the impression I get is that French has even more [χ] kind of noises than German. And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

[Ambrisio]

And what would you say about Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Spanish, Polish, Czech, Welsh, Mandarin, Urdu, Persian, Xhosa, Mongolian, Serbian, Finnish, Tamil, Scots, Old English, ...

Velar fricatives are easy. If you can say /k/, you can say /x/. Just leave a little opening between your tongue and palate.

[----]

I always find English speakers trying to pronounce [x] or [χ] end up with something more like hocking up phlegm, which I don't know how to transcribe. Is there an IPA diacritic for phlegm bubbles?

I have heard several people insist that it is required and part of the sound. Surprisingly, none of them actually have any linguistic experience.

[dhok]

And what would you say about Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Spanish, Polish, Czech, Welsh, Mandarin, Urdu, Persian, Xhosa, Mongolian, Serbian, Finnish, Tamil, Scots, Old English, ...

Velar fricatives are easy. If you can say /k/, you can say /x/. Just leave a little opening between your tongue and palate.

What? Since when did Finnish have /x/?

[Imralu]

And what would you say about Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Spanish, Polish, Czech, Welsh, Mandarin, Urdu, Persian, Xhosa, Mongolian, Serbian, Finnish, Tamil, Scots, Old English, ...

Velar fricatives are easy. If you can say /k/, you can say /x/. Just leave a little opening between your tongue and palate.

What? Since when did Finnish have /x/?

I think he meant [x].

By the way, can anyone think of a minimal pair in German that contrasts /h/ and and the ach-Laut [x]? The ach-Laut is found in syllable codas and /h/ is found in onsets.
Between vowels, /h/ doesn't, as far as I know, appear before unstressed vowels (as in the endings -e, -est, -er, -en, -ern, -el, -eln, -ich, -ig, -isch, -ung etc) except in spelling pronunciations, such as [ˈgeːhɛ] for <gehe> (instead of the usual [ˈgeːə]), which is why the Dehnungs-H is so rarely, if ever, ambiguous.
And if an ach-Laut appears before a stressed vowel, as far as I'm aware, there's a morpheme boundary straight after it and thus, at least in theory, also a glottal stop, eg. Rauchabzug [ˈʁaʊ̯xˌʔaptsuːk].

I always find English speakers trying to pronounce [x] or [χ] end up with something more like hocking up phlegm, which I don't know how to transcribe. Is there an IPA diacritic for phlegm bubbles?

I have heard several people insist that it is required and part of the sound. Surprisingly, none of them actually have any linguistic experience.

Can you slap these people for me? That's a bit like saying showering your listener in spit is a required part of /θ/. Phegm hocking and spit spraying are unpleasant possible side effects of these sounds that can happen if your mouth is not used to making the sound pleasantly.

[Ambrisio]

I did mean [x].

[din]

And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

I know that you know, but there are millions of Dutch speakers who manage to avoid the [χ] entirely I don't allow them to come anywhere near me unless I'm imitating a Hollander.


(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)


I know I've tried to defend Dutch before (I'm a Dutch teacher, after all), but this is what I hear on a daily basis (well, that would be French, actually, but you know...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaZz8Co6g0

[Shrdlu]

Apropos of this discussion, this song,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LOpK09gBwQ

Cornelis Vreeswijk - Bakker de Baksteen

[Io]

In general, I can't stand velar or uvular fricatives. They hurt my ears to listen to, and they hurt my throat to try and say.

AT LEAST YOU HAVE A UVULA, NEXT TIME BEFORE YOU BULLY ME YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR UVULA PRIVILEGE!!


By the way, I've resumed my interest in Greek lately, yesterday I was reading stuff in Greek on various websites (= different fonts) and I thought "my, isn't Greek such a beautiful scriptie!", then I remembered this thread and the fact that we probably need 'Most beautiful/ugliest scriptie' thread. It's not only pretty pretty but varied as well, for example the following sign in a Byzantine font (which I like for its resemblance to the early Bulgarian script before that nitwit Peter the-not-Great ruined it)

[Gulliver]

Don't quote me on this one or even ask for a source, but I have read a summary of a study which pointed to that speakers of German and Dutch have a statically higher rate of throat aliments, because of all the fricatives.

The only time I ever lost my voice was when I lived in Hamburg. Then again, I was surrounded by snotmonster children, so I was bound to pick something up.

[Imralu]

And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

I know that you know, but there are millions of Dutch speakers who manage to avoid the [χ] entirely I don't allow them to come anywhere near me unless I'm imitating a Hollander.

You don't allow the people who don't say [χ] to come near you? Or the other way around? Or you don't allow [χ]s to come near you?

(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)

Yeah, most Hebrew speakers I've heard make their [χ] very softly, and the language is very flowy. Here's a song by Yael Naim.

I know I've tried to defend Dutch before (I'm a Dutch teacher, after all), but this is what I hear on a daily basis (well, that would be French, actually, but you know...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaZz8Co6g0

I love that accent. I've heard it before. Which area is it from? The southern part? Belgium? Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it seems to have a [ç] [x] allophony thing, like German.

[Io]

(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)

Yeah, most Hebrew speakers I've heard make their [χ] very softly, and the language is very flowy. Here's a song by Yael Naim.

viewtopic.php?p=908460#p908460

[din]

And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

I know that you know, but there are millions of Dutch speakers who manage to avoid the [χ] entirely I don't allow them to come anywhere near me unless I'm imitating a Hollander.

You don't allow the people who don't say [χ] to come near you? Or the other way around? Or you don't allow [χ]s to come near you?

Yeah, just the [χ]'s. (now there's a sentence that only works in writing)

I can forgive the Dutch speakers who produce them

(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)

Yeah, most Hebrew speakers I've heard make their [χ] very softly, and the language is very flowy. Here's a song by Yael Naim.

The opening line really drives that point home doesn't it It is a nice song.

I know I've tried to defend Dutch before (I'm a Dutch teacher, after all), but this is what I hear on a daily basis (well, that would be French, actually, but you know...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaZz8Co6g0

I love that accent. I've heard it before. Which area is it from? The southern part? Belgium? Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it seems to have a [ç] [x] allophony thing, like German.

Yes, it's standard tv-Flemish. They've unofficially standardized their language for speaking purposes, but they bizarrely use standard Dutch as their written standard, and still look down on perfectly acceptable Belgicisms which are basically used in all registers in spoken conversation.

You're not imagining anything-- most Flemish and southern Dutch accents (in Limburg and Brabant) pronounce /x/ [ç] before or after /i, e/.

[merijn]

And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

I know that you know, but there are millions of Dutch speakers who manage to avoid the [χ] entirely I don't allow them to come anywhere near me unless I'm imitating a Hollander.


(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)


I know I've tried to defend Dutch before (I'm a Dutch teacher, after all), but this is what I hear on a daily basis (well, that would be French, actually, but you know...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaZz8Co6g0

However, many speakers who don't have a [χ] for g or ch, do have a uvular R. I am such a speaker myself. (I am originally from the Meierij in North-Brabant, although I have lived in Utrecht for almost half of my life)

[Shrdlu]

Nobody's gonna comment on the song I posted?

[din]

And χeDutch is just χrediculous!

I know that you know, but there are millions of Dutch speakers who manage to avoid the [χ] entirely I don't allow them to come anywhere near me unless I'm imitating a Hollander.


(I like [χ], but the majority of Dutch accents that have a [χ] are pretty ugly, and [χ] doesn't really help matters. I do like it in Hebrew, for example)


I know I've tried to defend Dutch before (I'm a Dutch teacher, after all), but this is what I hear on a daily basis (well, that would be French, actually, but you know...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsaZz8Co6g0

However, many speakers who don't have a [χ] for g or ch, do have a uvular R. I am such a speaker myself. (I am originally from the Meierij in North-Brabant, although I have lived in Utrecht for almost half of my life)

But the uvular R is gentle and inoffensive. My accent has it, too.

- - -

I also didn't know that Cornelis Vreeswijk grew up in Sweden and was well(?) known there. But then, I don't really know too much about him
(happy now?)