The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Viktor77]

So it's a variant pronunciation. Hurrah.

Well, that might be, or may be an archaism. That is why I asked here, since I don't no any other Brits in real life.

[finlay]

Who says it, though? Downton Abbey is a show all about class, and they may be trying to show something about the person's class by having them pronounce the word in a non-standard way. Or else that was the common pronunciation at the time. I'm told in the war people said Nazi with [z] instead of [ts], because they didn't know the "correct" pronunciation until later.

[Viktor77]

Who says it, though? Downton Abbey is a show all about class, and they may be trying to show something about the person's class by having them pronounce the word in a non-standard way. Or else that was the common pronunciation at the time. I'm told in the war people said Nazi with [z] instead of [ts], because they didn't know the "correct" pronunciation until later.

All of the classes say it that way, both the nobility and the servant class and across all of the dialects, Irish to the British dialects. That's why I assumed it was standard in RP, but now it seems it may be an archaism. Sal would probably know, I might PM him.

[Travis B.]

can (modal -- "can you X?"): /ˈkɛn/ > [ˈkʰɛ̃(ː)(n)], /ˈkən/ > [ˈkʰn̩(ː)]
actual: /ˈɛkʃuəl/ > [ˈɛʔkɕʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
can (tin can): /ˈkɛn/ > [ˈkʰɛ̃(ː)(n)]
cabinet: /ˈkɛbənət/ > [ˈkʰɛːbɨ̃ːnɨʔ]
insurance: /ənˈʃərəns/ > [ɨ̃nˈɕʁ̩ˤːʁˤɨ̃nts]
picture: /ˈpɪkʃər/ > [ˈpʰɪʔkɕʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
coupon: /ˈkupan/ > [ˈkʰupã(ː)(n)]
hotel: /hoˈtɜl/ > [hoˈtʰɜ̟(ː)ɤ̯]

(Note that I have reverted to a more conservative representation of intervocalic lenis versus fortis obstruents, to cover a wider range of idiolects than just my own, and even my own when speaking more carefully.)

[vampireshark]

Using my screwy dialect/manner of speaking:
can (modal) [kʰæn] ~ [kʰɪn]
actual [ˈæk.t͡ʃu.əl]
can [kʰæn]
cabinet [ˈkʰæb.nɪt]
insurance [ˈɪn.ʃɚ.ɪns]
picture [ˈpɪk.t͡ʃɚ]
coupon [ˈkʰu.pʰɔn]
hotel [ˈhoʊ̯.tʰɛl]

In America we use the pseudo-French [ve@.lei'].

Wait, what? I've only ever heard [ˈvæˌlei̯] here in the US, which doesn't stray as far from the French as what you posted.

[ol bofosh]

Is it true that in Britain they pronounce valet as [va'.lEt] (there's probably a diphthong in there but that's besides the point)? In America we use the pseudo-French [ve@.lei']. And why would America have the more French version than Britain? After all, we don't have colour or favourite, or realise, etc.

Apparently it is an old fashioned way of saying it, which is why they have it in Downton Abbey.

[Travis B.]

In America we use the pseudo-French [ve@.lei'].

Wait, what? I've only ever heard [ˈvæˌlei̯] here in the US, which doesn't stray as far from the French as what you posted.

[eə] is just Viktor's dialect's realization of historical /æ/, thanks to the NCVS; analogously I have /ˈvɛˌle/ > [ˈvɛːˌɤ̯e(ː)], with a different outcome of the NCVS IMD.

[Viktor77]

In America we use the pseudo-French [ve@.lei'].

Wait, what? I've only ever heard [ˈvæˌlei̯] here in the US, which doesn't stray as far from the French as what you posted.

[eə] is just Viktor's dialect's realization of historical /æ/, thanks to the NCVS; analogously I have /ˈvɛˌle/ > [ˈvɛːˌɤ̯e(ː)], with a different outcome of the NCVS IMD.

Did you just say you legitly have [E]? Now that surprises me quite a bit!

[finlay]

No, he didn't. Travis is being, as always, a "special snowflake" in his method of transcription, without really considering that we use standardised phonemic transcriptions in order to show more directly which vowel is which in a sort of macro sense. By marking æ as ɛ the only thing this does is confuse people, as they don't know which vowel it corresponds to anymore. (In phonetic it doesn't matter at all, but in phonemic transcriptions, if you use your own idiosyncratic one, it can be missing the point)

[jmcd]

On the other hand, this is the actual normal pronunciation in New Zealand and Singapore.

[Travis B.]

No, he didn't. Travis is being, as always, a "special snowflake" in his method of transcription, without really considering that we use standardised phonemic transcriptions in order to show more directly which vowel is which in a sort of macro sense. By marking æ as ɛ the only thing this does is confuse people, as they don't know which vowel it corresponds to anymore. (In phonetic it doesn't matter at all, but in phonemic transcriptions, if you use your own idiosyncratic one, it can be missing the point)

I could be less special snowflake-y in my phonemic transcriptions and use /æ/ and /ɛ/ instead of /ɛ/ and /ɜ/, but I tend to prefer phonemic transcriptions that are tailored to the variety they describe*. When I am really trying to be crossdialectal I tend to prefer either referring to historical vowel phonemes explicitly or simply naming my vowels using lexical sets.

Phonetically I still have [ɛ] (or sometimes [e̯ɛ]) and [ɜ̟] respectively for the two regardless of how I analyze the phonemically. I could call the latter [ɛ̠], but it would be harder to read because it would be distinguished from the former only by a single diacritic.

(There was a study I remember reading about how in at least southeastern Wisconsin historical /æ/ and /ɛ/ actually formed a front-central contrast, and had no consistent height contrast.)

* hence why I also use /e/ instead of /eɪ̯/, /o/ instead of /oʊ̯/, /ɒ/ instead of /ɔː/, /er/ instead of /ɛr/, /or/ instead of /ɔːr/, /ae̯/ and /əe̯/ instead of /aɪ̯/, and /ɑɔ̯/ instead of /aʊ̯/

[Viktor77]

However, you transcribe it I'm still surprised. I have nothing even near to /E/. Ours is so backed it's like /3/ but lowered.

We have [e] as well, but only in the diphthongs [e@] and [ei]. The latter, to my ears, I read as /ei/ and not /eI/. The only reason I suspect the /i/ is because our /I/ is backed substantially to about the mid-vowel /1/, and a diphthong of /e1/ doesn't quite seem sensible to me. Perhaps we really do retain /I/ in that diphthong /eI/, but I somehow doubt we'd retain the sound just in a diphthong, plus I hear the fronting to the .

Your dialect isn't far from mine, I would have assumed you would have displayed pretty much the same characteristics.

[Travis B.]

Conversely, my dialect lacks both [eə̯] and [eɪ̯]*, and historical /æ/ is very much a front vowel in it, and is typically a monopthong or rather narrow diphthong (even though there are some from the Milwaukee area which have a much wider diphthong like [i̯ɛ] therefor).

As for historical /ɛ/, at least for me its pronunciation varies significantly; on one hand I have caught myself using [ɜ] in informal speech, but on the other hand in very careful speech my pronunciation can approach [ɛ] (and hence get very close to that of historical /æ/). Most of the time I am somewhere between the two, hence [ɜ̟] practically serves as a good description.

As for stressed /ɪ/, I generally just describe it as [ɪ] as it is just lightly backed as typical of English /ɪ/, and is nowhere near my central [ɨ].**

And yes, in the bigger scheme of things the English in southeastern Wisconsin is not far at all from that in Michigan, but there are differences like these in the details; hell, I can tell the difference between English in the Chicago area and that in the Milwaukee area, and those are geographically much closer together.

* except that it may have the latter in careful speech influenced by GA, and even then primarily when not followed by consonants
** but I describe the merging of historical /iːr/ and /ɪr/ as /ir/ and not /ɪr/ because the resulting vowel, even though it is a near-close front unrounded vowel, it is entirely a front vowel, and hence in front of my normal [ɪ]; it might be best characterized as [i̞]

[Viktor77]

Ok, another question for Brits, "appreciate."

Would you ever or any of your countrymen ever pronounce it [@.p`i.si.eIt] or however the vowels are rendered. I don't care about the vowels anyway, I care about the /s/ which in every version of appreciate I've ever heard is a [S], except again in that show I watch about the early 20th century nobility.

[ol bofosh]

I think it`s an RP thing. But not something I've heard except on telly.

As for me: [ə.ˈpɹʷˠɪi̯.ʃɪ.ɛɪ̯t]

[finlay]

With [s] it sounds not really upper-class but more like someone's trying to be upper-class.

[ol bofosh]

With [s] it sounds not really upper-class but more like someone's trying to be upper-class.

Anyone with an upper class accent sounds like they're trying to be upper class, even the Queen. It sounds so affected, how can it be natural?

[Micropterus]

close / closer - klouz / klouzʌr
cuneiform - kjuniɸɔrm
hair, heir, her - hɛr,hɛr, hʌr
factory / factorial - ɸɛktri / ɸɛktɔriɔl
century / centurion - sẽtʃuri / sẽturiõ
victory / victorious - βiktri / βiktɔriʌs
restaurant / restauranteur - ɾɛstɔɾãt / ɾɛstɔrãtʃʌr
history / historical - ʁistri / ʁistɔɾikol
mystery / mysterious -mistri - mistɛriʌs
interest, interesting and interestingly - ĩt͡ʃrʌst, ĩt͡ʃrʌstiŋ, ĩt͡ʃrʌstiŋli
plosive - plouziβ

I'm not sure I got the IPA right but it's somewhere around this

[Burke]

close / closer - klouz / klouzʌr
cuneiform - kjuniɸɔrm
hair, heir, her - hɛr,hɛr, hʌr
factory / factorial - ɸɛktri / ɸɛktɔriɔl
century / centurion - sẽtʃuri / sẽturiõ
victory / victorious - βiktri / βiktɔriʌs
restaurant / restauranteur - ɾɛstɔɾãt / ɾɛstɔrãtʃʌr
history / historical - ʁistri / ʁistɔɾikol
mystery / mysterious -mistri - mistɛriʌs
interest, interesting and interestingly - ĩt͡ʃrʌst, ĩt͡ʃrʌstiŋ, ĩt͡ʃrʌstiŋli
plosive - plouziβ

I'm not sure I got the IPA right but it's somewhere around this

I cannot recognize your accent at all? Are you by chance Brazilian?

[Pogostick Man]

Wait, what? I've only ever heard [ˈvæˌlei̯] here in the US, which doesn't stray as far from the French as what you posted.

??? I'm an American and I think I have something like ['væə̯.liɪ̯] (or maybe ['væə̯l̴.iɪ̯] or something close, depending on how I syllabify it).

[Nortaneous]

oh for fuck's sake post broader transcriptions i can't tell what you're disagreeing with what with all the unnecessary detail

[Pogostick Man]

oh for fuck's sake post broader transcriptions i can't tell what you're disagreeing with what with all the unnecessary detail

A fair point, my apologies. I meant the final vowel. vampireshark apparently has [ei̯] there, whereas I have something around .

[Micropterus]

-SNIP-

I cannot recognize your accent at all? Are you by chance Brazilian?

Yes, I am.

[Travis B.]

Wait, what? I've only ever heard [ˈvæˌlei̯] here in the US, which doesn't stray as far from the French as what you posted.

??? I'm an American and I think I have something like ['væə̯.liɪ̯] (or maybe ['væə̯l̴.iɪ̯] or something close, depending on how I syllabify it).

I presume then that valet and valley are homophones for you?

[Micropterus]

Now I'm curious, how do you say coyote because everybody I ask have a different pronunciation for it ...
As for me, I say it [kajouɾi] more or less