Re: Help me with semantic examples! (from Zomp's blog)

[Qwynegold]

In Mandarin, you can't "play" a sport or an instrument. You have to specify what action you are performing on the object (ball, instrument, etc.) when you are participating in the activity.

That reminds me, in Spanish, the verb tocar, which normally means 'to touch', is what you use for 'to play [an instrument]'. In fact, it's a common joke to brag that you can play (tocar) a certain instrument when you see a friend playing it well. Then, when they give you the instrument, you proceed to literally just touch it/poke it with the tip of your index.

Lol, can you play any kind of flute?

• "ramię" (shoulder, arm)

This reminds me, Swedish has a word ram which means the arm of a bear, or something.

[Ser]

In Mandarin, you can't "play" a sport or an instrument. You have to specify what action you are performing on the object (ball, instrument, etc.) when you are participating in the activity.

That reminds me, in Spanish, the verb tocar, which normally means 'to touch', is what you use for 'to play [an instrument]'. In fact, it's a common joke to brag that you can play (tocar) a certain instrument when you see a friend playing it well. Then, when they give you the instrument, you proceed to literally just touch it/poke it with the tip of your index.

Lol, can you play any kind of flute?

If you're asking whether the verb tocar is used with flutes, the answer is yes, in fact it's used with all instruments. Tocar una flauta, la batería, la harmónica (lit. "to touch a flute, the drums, the harmonica").

[Qwynegold]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but something like this:

Code: Select all

English Swedish  Finnish
Chick   Kyckling Tipu
Chicken Kyckling Kana
Hen     Höna     Kana
And the middle row is what you call the meat of the bird.

Japanese
kagi - lock or key

Swedish
bläckfisk - octopus or squid. However, you can specify octopus as åttaarmad bläckfisk (eight armed ink fish) and squid as tioarmad bläckfisk (ten armed ink fish).

Swedish/Finnish
skåp/kaappi - closet, cupboard, locker, etc. Basically anything that you store things in and that has a hatch. But usually not a piece of furniture that you can move around.

[Qwynegold]

In Mandarin, you can't "play" a sport or an instrument. You have to specify what action you are performing on the object (ball, instrument, etc.) when you are participating in the activity.

That reminds me, in Spanish, the verb tocar, which normally means 'to touch', is what you use for 'to play [an instrument]'. In fact, it's a common joke to brag that you can play (tocar) a certain instrument when you see a friend playing it well. Then, when they give you the instrument, you proceed to literally just touch it/poke it with the tip of your index.

Lol, can you play any kind of flute?

If you're asking whether the verb tocar is used with flutes, the answer is yes, in fact it's used with all instruments. Tocar una flauta, la batería, la harmónica (lit. "to touch a flute, the drums, the harmonica").

Hahaha, you are so oblivious!

[Imralu]

Lé wówapi kiŋ é. "This is the book." (The identity of 'this' is 'the book'.)
Lé wówapi héčha. "This is a book." (The class of 'this' is 'books'.)

Very cool.

In addition to that, Lakota has four levels of definiteness for nominals:

(1) wówapi waŋží "a book; any old book" (indefinite, unknown to speaker)
(2) wówapi waŋ "a particular book" (indefinite, known to speaker)
(3) wówapi kiŋ "the book" (definite, known to speaker)
(4) wówapi k'uŋ "the aforementioned book; you know, that old book" (definite, known to both speaker and listener)

What's the difference between the third and fourth? To me, that seems like (1) is unknown to both speaker and listener, (2) is known to the speaker but not to the listener and (3) and (4) are known to both the speaker and listener.

kaatua - fall down from a standing position. It can be either person or thing.
pudota/tippua - fall down from a height or into a hole. These two are more or less synonymous.

For me, kaatua is "fall over" whereas pudota/tippua is just "fall down a hole", "fall off something" or just "fall". I hear "fall down" from other people sometimes for the kaatua meaning, but I would never use it that way.

Japanese 'play' (asobu) is also different from English. It's sort of like the opposite of 'work' and can be used for adults as well as children. For example, asobi ni kuru means "come over for a visit" but is literally "come to play" and is completely natural to use even for adults who are not going to do anything but eat, drink and talk, for example.

I knew there must be a word like this from hearing my students speak. Once, a student told me another student played with her on the weekend and then they slept together. o.O

I don't speak any more than the basics of any Asian language but from talking to students there seems to be a big difference between our word "friend" and the Korean and Chinese words that are listed as "friend" in dictionaries.

One day, I asked a Korean student what he was doing and he told me he was waiting for his "Korean brother". I told him that "Korean" was redundant because people's brothers are generally assumed to be the same nationality. He said "Oh, no. He's not my real brother. I don't know what the English word is. I don't think you have it in English. It's like "friend" but he is older." I said "Uh, the word is "friend". "Noooo! Friend is same age. He is older." I explained to him that age really has nothing to do with the word friend. I told him that I have a friend who is fifty-something and he was adamant that she wasn't a friend. I asked him what the Korean word for friend is. I think the word he said was "chin-gu". I told him that "chin-gu" might be restricted to the same age but "friend" definitely isn't. He seemed to believe me but looked a bit sceptical. He asked me what he should say in English and I told him "I'm waiting for my friend." He asked me "But how do I say he's older than me?" and I said "You can say 'I'm waiting for my friend. He's older than me,' but people will think you're a very strange person. We don't define all our relationships by who is older or younger." He thought about it and told me a few days later that he had previously thought Australians only socialise with people their own age because we were lacking these words for older or younger friends (or rather, we don't use special words for older or younger siblings to denote them).

Another time, we had a new Korean student in the class and another Korean student proudly announced to me "Teacher, he is my friend" and I assumed they had known each other in Korea. In fact, they hadn't even really spoken to each other but because they were both born in 1986, he thought they were friends. I explained "You're not friends, you're just the same age" and I felt like I was crushing a dream. I listed off who I thought were his closest friends in the class. All the Korean students and a few Taiwanese students started telling me who was older and younger and finally, a Colombian girl stood up and just said "Can't we all just be friends?"

[Rui]

Re: tall, short, etc. Mandarin also doesn't distinguish between tall and high, but does distinguish them from long. Low is also distinguished, as well as short in length and height are different.

Code: Select all

Tall   高  gao1       Short   矮  ai3
High   高  gao1       Low     低  di1
Long   长  chang2     Short   短  duan3

I've been told on numerous occasions that I am "so high" when the Chinese person really meant "so tall".

[Ran]

Yep... and to continue on the same vein

Code: Select all

Heavy  重    zhong4     Light   輕[轻]qing1
Dark   深    shen1      Light   淺[浅]qian3  [as in colour]
Deep   深    shen1      Shallow 淺[浅]qian3
Dark   暗    an4        Bright  亮    liang4 [as in environments; if used to describe colors, then "dull/bright"]

Code: Select all

Thick  厚    hou4       Thin    薄    bao4

for flat or sheet-like things, e.g., paper, documents, clothing, bedding

Code: Select all

Thick  粗    cu1        Thin    細[细]xi4

for long or stick-like things, e.g. pencils, plants, lines drawn on paper

Code: Select all

Fat    胖    pang4      Thin    瘦    shou4

for people

Code: Select all

Fat    肥     fei2      Thin    瘦    shou4

for animals; can also be "fatty / lean" when describing meat

[Nesescosac]

A distinction that Bengali doesn't make - "eat" and "drink" are both transalted by the same word, "khaoa" (খাওা).

[zompist]

Imralu, I love that story about "friends"; it's a perfect example of cross-linguistic confusion. I hope one of our Koreanophones will give and explain the Korean words.

[Ser]

I knew there must be a word like this from hearing my students speak. Once, a student told me another student played with her on the weekend and then they slept together. o.O

Oh God Imralu, you have the most hilarious stories. First the Spanish speaker who told you you were the best teacher she had "never" met, and now this.

Yep... and to continue on the same vein [...]

What is this wizardry? A citizen of the PRC listing characters in their traditional form first, and then in simplified in parenthesis? Are my eyes deluding me?

Imralu, I love that story about "friends"; it's a perfect example of cross-linguistic confusion. I hope one of our Koreanophones will give and explain the Korean words.

For all intents and purposes let it be known I know almost zero Korean, but from what my 20-something Korean sort-of-friends have explained to me, Koreans refer to their friends using the same words they use for older siblings, if they're born in an earlier year of the Korean calendar (apologies to Linguoboy in advance for using RR instead of Yale romanization):

1. a girl refers to a friend who is female and older as 언니 eonni 'older sister (for girls)'
2. a girl refers to a friend who is male and older as 오빠 oppa 'older brother (for girls)' (same word as in Oppa Gangnam Style)
3. a guy refers to a friend who is female and older as 누나 nuna 'older sister (for guys)'
4. a guy refers to a friend who is male and older as 형 hyeong 'older brother (for guys)'

This only goes for friends who were born in a previous year though. If they were born in the same year, they refer to each other as 친구 jingu (the word Imralu wrote as "chingu", reflecting its pronunciation [tɕìŋgu]). If the other person is younger, they just refer to them by their name and not a sibling word. Note that Korean similarly only has one word for younger siblings: 동생 dongsaeng, in stark contrast with the distinctions made for older siblings.

[Astraios]

What's the difference between the third and fourth? To me, that seems like (1) is unknown to both speaker and listener, (2) is known to the speaker but not to the listener and (3) and (4) are known to both the speaker and listener.

True, (3) can refer to something known to both speaker and listener, but for purposes of differentiating it from (4), which is anaphoric and refers specifically to something known to both, (3) can also refer to something definite that the speaker knows about but the listener doesn't. Like so:

Míla waŋží owále. - I'm looking for a knife. (Do you have one? I don't care which one. Any knife will do.)
Míla waŋ owále. - I'm looking for a knife. (A certain knife for a specific purpose. You don't know which knife or which purpose.)
Míla kiŋ owále. - I'm looking for the knife. (The specific knife. You may or may not know which knife. I'm not telling you that you do know; if you do then good for you, but it doesn't matter.)
Míla k'uŋ owále. - I'm looking for the knife. (The knife we were just talking about. Or, you know, that exact knife we both know we mean when we use =k'uŋ; the one you gave me as a present, the really special one with bells on. I'm explicitly telling you that you know which knife I mean.)

Wičháša waŋží waŋláka he? - Do you see a man? (Any man at all. Anybody, somebody. [Wouldn't work as a statement - you can't say "I see any man".])
Wičháša waŋ waŋbláke. - I see a man. (A certain man. He's specific, but not identifiable. Only I see him.)
Wičháša kiŋ waŋbláke. - I see the man. (The specific man. Now I can identify him as John or Sitting Bull or Harry Potter. You probably see him too.)
Wičháša k'uŋ waŋbláke. - I see the man. (The man we were just talking about. Or, you know, that man we both know immediately we're referring to him when we use =k'uŋ; the really hot one, the one we both can't stand. I'm explicitly telling you that you know which man I mean.)

[Ran]

Yep... and to continue on the same vein [...]

What is this wizardry? A citizen of the PRC listing characters in their traditional form first, and then in simplified in parenthesis? Are my eyes deluding me?

1 - I am not a citizen of the PRC
2 - The citizens of the PRC vary in their usage of, and preference for, simplified characters

[Ran]

Standard Mandarin Chinese - Kinship terms

All in all, there are a lot more mandatory distinctions made than in English...

Siblings:

Code: Select all

哥哥    ge1ge0         [older brother]
弟弟    di4di0         [younger brother]
姐姐    jie3jie0       [older sister]
妹妹    mei4mei0       [younger sister]

First cousins:

Code: Select all

堂哥    tang2ge1        [older male cousin whose father is brother to one's father]
堂弟    tang2di4        [younger male cousin whose father is brother to one's father]
堂姐    tang2jie3       [older female cousin whose father is brother to one's father]
堂妹    tang2mei4       [younger female cousin whose father is brother to one's father]
表哥    biao3ge1        [older male cousin whose father is not brother to one's father]
表弟    biao3di4        [younger male cousin whose father is not brother to one's father]
表姐    biao3jie3       [older female cousin whose father is not brother to one's father]
表妹    biao3mei4       [younger female cousin whose father is not brother to one's father]

(Think of it in terms of a patrilocal society, where the sons of a family, and their wives and children, stay in the same house - the first four terms above are for cousins who would live under the same roof as you, the second four terms are for cousins who would not.)
The upshot of this is that a sentence like "Chris is Alex's cousin" is impossible to translate without additional information...

Uncles:

Code: Select all

伯父    bo2fu4        [father's older brother]
叔叔    shu1shu0      [father's younger brother]
姑父    gu1fu4        [father's sister's husband]
舅舅    jiu4jiu0      [mother's brother]
姨父    yi2fu4        [mother's sister's husband]

Aunts:

Code: Select all

伯母     bo2mu3        [father's older brother's wife]
嬸嬸[婶婶]shen3shen0    [father's younger brother's wife]
姑媽[姑妈]gu1ma1        [father's sister]
舅媽[舅妈]jiu4ma1       [mother's brother's wife]
姨媽[姨妈]yi2ma1        [mother's sister]

Nephews and nieces:

Code: Select all

侄子     zhi2zi0        [brother's son]
侄女     zhi2nü3        [brother's daughter]
外甥     wai4sheng1     [sister's son]
外甥女   wai4sheng1nü3  [sister's daughter]

(Note: There is a lot of regional variation in uncle/aunt/nephew/niece terms [including in regional usage of Standard Mandarin] so the above should be taken as examples only)

[Imralu]

With the one child policy, I imagine the number of peoplein China who have cousins is decreasing.

[Ran]

1 - the one child policy exists only in mainland china
2 - there is a one-generation lag between the one-child policy being put in place and first cousins becoming rare
3 - these terms (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) are freely applied in everyday usage (with or without modification) to second, third, etc. cousins, by analogy
4 - and besides, soon there may not be a one-child policy

so, no, these terms are not dying out, if that is what you had in mind. i would say though that, anecdotally, the tang2- / biao3- distinction for first cousins might be dying out, due to the demise of patrilocality

[Ran]

on a related note, found this:

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/ ... rmsys.html

[Ser]

Uhh... I posted this in another thread, but I figured it would be a good idea to post it here as well (Zompist is also looking for etymologies anyway), because of the Arabic bit (not all "complex" concepts have to be derived), and the Spanish bit (synchronically speaking, derivations can have very different meanings from the words they're derived from—another good example is the classic (American/Canadian/Australian football "handegg" vs. proper British football).

I've envisioned a fairly isolated con-culture (at least they're isolated early on in the history of the con-world), so what I'd like to do is start with a fairly small list of words to represent a Proto-form at (for ease of reference) the year 1000 BC. From there, and those basic words, I would add more complex ideas (perhaps "to understand" would be derived from the earlier "to see"), and then I'd start adding new concepts and loan words as the con-culture starting to develop and encounter other cultures throughout history. This is more or less what everyone does, right?

Well, that's one way to do it at least. Your proto-language doesn't have to be like PIE either, with roots partially constructed and mysterious phonemes, it could just be a language (you could English as your proto-language, for example). There's nothing stopping from having basic, unanalyzable roots for non-tangible, "complex" concepts either BTW: Arabic happens to have such a root for the verb meaning "to understand": فهم fahima (f-h-m). I dunno if that's what "everyone" does. I, at least, don't do that, and add derive words without thinking much about the chronology of when the words were created and how/how fast/when their meanings changed.

And what words do you derive from those basic words; or, rather, how do you decide what word will be derived from which root? For instance, "to understand" could be derived from the aforementioned "to see," but it could also be derived from its own root meaning "to understand," or it could be derived from the root for "to stand" (which could, in turn, be derived from a root for "to be straight"; or vice versa, for that matter). With all those possibilities, how do you decide? What's your process?

I generally just think of concepts that are closely or vaguely related to the ones I already have for a certain root, and create words for them attaching derivational affixes to the root (or to the words I already have).

I also sometimes (not often though) like to go wild and use meanings that are far away from the root/words I have, using the justification that the derived word just happens to be that ancient. Natlangs provide excellent examples for this sort of thing: the most basic word in Spanish that translates "to understand" is entender, which is a word derived from tender 'to tend [towards sth]; to hang [clothes] outside to dry; to lay [a patient][on a bed]; to set [a trap]' (attaching the prefix en-). You're probably wondering, 'what the flying fuck does "hanging clothes, laying the wounded on bed and setting traps" has to do with understanding concepts??'. Well, it turns out the word entender is just that fucking ancient. Intendere 'to stretch [sth]; to turn one's attention to [sth]' was already present in Latin in the 1st century BC.

[clawgrip]

Japanese
kagi - lock or key

Technically 鍵 kagi only means 'key', and 'lock' is 錠 jō, but because Japanese allows a lot of grey area for the specification of subjects and objects, passive and active, people can get away with referring to both with the same word. Now kagi is kind of taking on the meaning of lock as well, as you say. Not sure what they put on signs in stores where they sell padlocks or door locks, but they might use jō in those cases.

[Terra]

- antlers and horns are never commonly differentiated - they are both tsuno.

Which reminds me, compare Latin "cornú" (horn, antler) and "cervus" (deer). Both come from the PIE root *k^jer-, each with a different thematic vowel and consonant extension.

Edit: The Latin word could mean either "horn" or "antler" too. Also, the PIE root seemed to mean "head".

[hwhatting]

German does too. Leim and Kleister, which both fall under the general category of Klebe.

Klebe is not a word IMD. For me it's der Kleber (colloquial, no plural) or Klebstoff (standard / literary) as general words. Leim is a specific glue used for wood, and Kleister is what you use to glue wallpaper to the wall.
@ Chuma: yes, German uses the same word for "pocket" and "bag", it's Tasche. As usual, you can distinguish them by forming compunds - Jackentasche "pocket on a jacket", Hosentasche "trouser pocket", Handtasche "hand bag", etc.
Russian also belongs to the languages that don't distinguish "hand" and "arm" (both ruká), "foot" and "leg" (nogá), "finger" and "toe" (pálec). OTOH, Russian distinguishes e.g. between "light blue" and "dark blue" as primary colours (golubóy vs. síniy) and between verbs for movement with goal and without goal (I've discussed this here.) As Mark knows Russian, all that probably isn't news to him.

[Drydic]

German does too. Leim and Kleister, which both fall under the general category of Klebe.

Klebe is not a word IMD. For me it's der Kleber (colloquial, no plural) or Klebstoff (standard / literary) as general words. Leim is a specific glue used for wood, and Kleister is what you use to glue wallpaper to the wall.
@ Chuma: yes, German uses the same word for "pocket" and "bag", it's Tasche. As usual, you can distinguish them by forming compunds - Jackentasche "pocket on a jacket", Hosentasche "trouser pocket", Handtasche "hand bag", etc.
Russian also belongs to the languages that don't distinguish "hand" and "arm" (both ruká), "foot" and "leg" (nogá), "finger" and "toe" (pálec). OTOH, Russian distinguishes e.g. between "light blue" and "dark blue" as primary colours (golubóy vs. síniy) and between verbs for movement with goal and without goal (I've discussed this here.) As Mark knows Russian, all that probably isn't news to him.

Russians don't have arms or legs and have fingers on their feet?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Cedh]

German does too. Leim and Kleister, which both fall under the general category of Klebe.

Klebe is not a word IMD. For me it's der Kleber (colloquial, no plural) or Klebstoff (standard / literary) as general words. Leim is a specific glue used for wood, and Kleister is what you use to glue wallpaper to the wall.

I agree that Hallow's example should use Kleber or Klebstoff.

As for Klebe, I don't think I've ever said this word myself, but I have heard it on the media several times. It doesn't mean "glue" though. It's mostly used in a sports context; it almost always appears as die linke Klebe or die rechte Klebe (with added "left"/"right"); and it prototypically denotes the striking power either of a boxer in his stronger hand or else of a football player in his stronger foot.

[Hallow XIII]

People, calm down. It's just a typo :O

[Ser]

Mandarin 誰/谁 shuí can be any of 'everybody, anybody, nobody, who (interrogative pronoun), who (relative pronoun without an antecedent), whoever', depending on how it's used (with a verb modified by 也 'also' or 都 'dōu', with a negative verb, with a verb that's not modified this way, simply as an argument of the verb in a complement clause: "I want to know who did it", repeated as an argument for two different verbs in juxtaposed sentences: "you want who, I'll go with who" (I'll go with whoever you want)).

Same goes for 什麼/什么 shéme/shénme which can be any of 'everything, anything, nothing, what (interr. pron./rel. pron. without antecedent), whatever'.

EDIT: English also has some interesting polysemy going on in "to wonder": wondering about something (having some questions about something) vs. wondering at something (marveling at something).

[zompist]

Going through these today, I got curious about terms for beauty. We have beautiful/handsome/pretty/cute, which seem in part to be determined by gender and the type of beauty.

French seems to agree on gendered terms... at least, it seems that jolie and mignonne are more used for women than joli and mignon for men, but I may be wrong.

I think Spanish is pretty even-- guapo/a is used for both, for instance.

And other languages...?