http://i.imgur.com/AKDLZgF.png
![Image](http://i.imgur.com/AKDLZgF.png)
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)
Jipí wrote:OH. MY. GOD. If everything goes according to plan, I'll spend 2 weeks in Seattle over New Year with my gf. I am one happy person right now.
Is what is being referred to here, and I suppose I should never mention her again, since No Girlfriends in the Clubhouse etc. etc. If I do, you're free to slap me around a bit with a large trout.[02.09.2013 22:12:35] <guitarplayer> someone messaged me here
[02.09.2013 22:12:40] <guitarplayer> but i was talking with my gf
[02.09.2013 22:12:45] <guitarplayer> (for the past 4 hours)
[02.09.2013 22:12:50] <guitarplayer> ((because.))
[02.09.2013 22:13:06] <Legion> guitarplayer that's not how you do it, watch:
[02.09.2013 22:13:11] <Legion> <guitarplayer> someone messaged me here
[02.09.2013 22:13:16] <Legion> <guitarplayer> but i was talking
[02.09.2013 22:13:28] <Legion> <guitarplayer> WITH MY ***GIRLFRIEND***
[02.09.2013 22:13:38] <Legion> <guitarplayer> did I mention I have a girlfriend?
[02.09.2013 22:13:42] <Legion> <guitarplayer> because I do
[02.09.2013 22:13:46] <guitarplayer> since when am I that obtrusive
[02.09.2013 22:13:52] <Legion> :)
[02.09.2013 22:14:03] <guitarplayer> also, I, too, whined long enough about not being in a relationship, so
[02.09.2013 22:14:04] <guitarplayer> !
[02.09.2013 22:14:51] <Serafin> yes
[02.09.2013 22:15:09] <Serafin> you whined long enough we were expecting you to be like WITH MY ~~~GIRLFRIEND~~~
That rule never passed, actuallyJipí wrote:Is what is being referred to here, and I suppose I should never mention her again, since No Girlfriends in the Clubhouse etc. etc. If I do, you're free to slap me around a bit with a large trout.
/me uncharacteristically but gleefully talks about girls all over the placeDrydic Guy wrote:That rule never passed, actuallyJipí wrote:Is what is being referred to here, and I suppose I should never mention her again, since No Girlfriends in the Clubhouse etc. etc. If I do, you're free to slap me around a bit with a large trout.
Only "roughly half"? I'm surprised, last time I read anything about it (I think in the "dtv-Atlas zur Deutschen Spache"), it said that /ɛː/ as a separate phoneme only exists in the Standard language and in some Alemannic dialects. Personally, I distinguish /ɛː/ from /eː/, despite being a Northerner, but I've always found that most other people don't, even South of the Weißwurst equator.cedh audmanh wrote: - gären has /ɛː/ in the standard language, it's /eː/ only in (northern) varieties that don't have an /ɛː/ phoneme. Since the latter holds for roughly half of all native speakers,
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
Read all about my excellent conlangsR.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
Read all about my excellent conlangsR.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Stop using phonemic slashes for everything under the sun.Basilius wrote:I thought the Standard distinction between *long* /eː/ and /ɛː/ had nothing to do with S. Germany.
Southern dialects (traditional) may have up to *three* different *short* vowels corresponding to (normalized) Middle High German *short* vowels /e/, /ë/ and /ä/, less commonly a similar distinction in long vowels; in both cases, the distribution is mostly faithfully etymological; it's irrelevant for lects which are closer to Standard except (IIRC) for some Halbmundart varieties.
Standard German spelling was once based on dialects which had no distinction of that sort, and often uses the two spellings to emphasize a derivational connection, which may contradict the actual sound history.
The orthoepic distinction in Standard German comes from *Northern* urban varieties, with local substrate dialects (mostly "Low German") having the additional height distinction only for the long vowels; the spellings /e/ and /ä/ were first assigned to those dialectal vowels, and their distribution in local accents of *High* German depended on spelling alone (since the dialectal vowels in question didn't consistently correspond to anything in Middle *High* German in the first place).
That's how the story is told in some books I've read; does it sound like just nonsense?
(Besides, there's of course also the unstressed vowel <e>, which, I suppose, was [ə] and which was frequently lost to apocope later on in both Northern Germany and Upper Germany independently.)- /e/ closed (primary umlaut of early OHG /a/), <e/ẹ> (NHG merges /e, ɛ, ä/)
- /ë/ half-open (from Germanic */e/ or */i/), <ë>, elsewhere transcribed as /ɛ/
- /ä/ open (secondary umlaut of OHG /a/), <ä/e>
- /ǟ/ (umlaut of /ā/), <æ>
- /ē/ (monophthongization of Germanic */ai/ before r, w, h, in codas and unstressed syllables), <ê>
I can't say anything right now on what conditions held during the formation of the current orthoepic norms or about the phonology of current Northern German dialects, but I can only repeat that in current Northern pronounciation of the Standard language, there is no contrast /eː/ :: /ɛː/; they're merged into /eː/. I may be able to read up on the history this weekend, when I'll be back at home and have my library at hand, but no promises.Basilius wrote:(4) Bühnenaussprache and today's orthoepic standard were based on Northern pronunciation (partly due to the economic situation in late 19th century, and partly due to more straightforward correspondence of the Northern pronunciation to the spelling, in this point and others). In particular, it has sole short /ɛ/ but retains /eː/ :: /ɛː/ contrast for the long vowels. This type of vowel inventory is stable in the North (where it also complies with traditional dialectal or semi-dialectal phonology), but in the South the long vowels tend to merge where the local dialects didn't support such distinction (for *long* vowels); the "Southern" contrast /e/ :: /ɛ/ (for *short* vowels) does not exist in urban varieties of German except on the level of Halbmundarten (i. e. substandard accents).
- and was correct, it was a typo.I wrote:<...> the spellings /e/ and /ä/ <...>
I can only assume that your books refer 1) to a distinction that was existent in the 19th century and now has disappeared or that 2) with "Northern" they actually mean the Northern part of the Hochdeutsch (=Non-Niederdeutsch) area, i.e. the Mitteldeutsch area South of the Benrath line, where, at least in certain regions as per the observations of GP and cedh, the distinction is maintained in the regional variants of Standard German.Basilius wrote:hwhatting: yes, it was that statement that made me wonder, for it contradicts more-less everything I've read on the subject. Perhaps, "Northern" is too broad a category.
I was also spitfiring aboutBasilius wrote:Jipí, I think he meant this:
- and was correct, it was a typo.I wrote:<...> the spellings /e/ and /ä/ <...>
For MHG, why? If we're discussing phonemic contrasts, we should use slashes. Not (always) using the IPA is good, too, since (1) we know about contrasts more than about phonetic detail, and (2) a manual must enable the students to read more special literature on the subject, thus introduce them to designations that are traditional for this specific branch of science in the first place.
I just didn't have any backup for lambasting you on that. Fortunately GP was able to work things out masterfully, as he is wont to.Southern dialects (traditional) may have up to *three* different *short* vowels corresponding to (normalized) Middle High German *short* vowels /e/, /ë/ and /ä/, less commonly a similar distinction in long vowels; in both cases, the distribution is mostly faithfully etymological; it's irrelevant for lects which are closer to Standard except (IIRC) for some Halbmundart varieties.