Natlang Etymology thread

[Vuvuzela]

Some words are unlikely to be traceable to a proto-language with a certain time depth, either because they are seldom enough used that they are extremely likely to be replaced within a given period of time, or because they refer to concepts that primitive peoples simply lacked, such as writing or industry. In this thread, people can post words that are likely to have an interesting etymology, and give etymologies for their own or other people's words in natural languages.
I'll start:
noun
English noun from French non from Latin nomen, both with the meaning of name.
Spanish sustantivo from Latin substantivum "of substance, material" from the verb substare to stand firm, from sub- "below" + stare "stand"

[Rui]

Same in Chinese, which may possibly have borrowed calqued it? I'm just making stuff up now so ignore that part. But it really does mean "name word" (名词 for those interested.)

[Grunnen]

Same in Chinese, which may possibly have borrowed calqued it? I'm just making stuff up now so ignore that part. But it really does mean "name word" (名词 for those interested.)

Funny, that's exactly like in Dutch: naamwoord. Although there a naamwoord is basically anything that's not verbal: zelfstandig naamwoord (noun), bijvoeglijk naamwoord (adjective), voornaamwoord (pronoun) etc.

[Pole, the]

Polish
· rzeczownik (noun) ← rzecz (thing) + -ownik (derivational ending); earlier rzecz (speech)

[Ser]

noun
English noun from French non from Latin nomen, both with the meaning of name.

From French non from Latin nomen 'name; nominal', itself a calque of Greek ὄνομα 'name; nominal', where "nominal" stands for "noun~adjective~adverb". The word's semantic space was later reduced to nouns. (This also explains the calque found in Dutch using Germanic naam-.)

I think Spanish sustantivo is also a calque from Greek, I think, but I have to work right now so I'll find out about that later.

[Astraios]

Hebrew šem etzem, literally "name of a thing" (as opposed to šem toar, adjective, "name of an epithet").

[clawgrip]

Same in Chinese, which may possibly have borrowed calqued it? I'm just making stuff up now so ignore that part. But it really does mean "name word" (名词 for those interested.)

Japanese uses the exact same word, 名詞 meishi.

[Rui]

Same in Chinese, which may possibly have borrowed calqued it? I'm just making stuff up now so ignore that part. But it really does mean "name word" (名词 for those interested.)

Japanese uses the exact same word, 名詞 meishi.

míngcí in Mandarin

While we're at it, here's the rest of the traditional parts of speech (from a Eurolang perspective, plus particles and measure words):

verb 动词 dòngcí "move word"
adjective 形容词 xíngróngcí "description word" from 形容 "description," from 形 "form/shape" and 容 "to hold/contain/appearance"
adverb 副词 fùcí "assistant/auxiliary word"
pronoun 代名词 dàimíngcí "substitute name word"
preposition 介词 jiècí "introduce/between word" (tbh can't really figure out which one is a "better" English translation)
conjunction 连词 liáncí "connect word"
interjection 感叹词 gǎntàncí "sigh word" from 感叹 "sigh" from 感 "feel" and 叹 "sigh"
particle 助词 zhùcí "help word"
classifier 量词 liàngcí "measure word"

So as you can see, very transparent. Many compound nouns in Mandarin are like this, actually, some a bit more creative than others.

[WeepingElf]

So as you can see, very transparent. Many compound nouns in Mandarin are like this, actually, some a bit more creative than others.

Yes. Chinese compounds can be highly poetic.

[linguoboy]

So as you can see, very transparent. Many compound nouns in Mandarin are like this, actually, some a bit more creative than others.

Yes. Chinese compounds can be highly poetic.

Examples? Outside of old poetry and Cantonese menus, most are disappointingly prosaic. Recently I was looking at names of diatomaceous earth in various languages (prodded by the discovery of German Kieselgu(h)r, which is still the coolest of the bunch) and the Chinese is just 矽藻土 "silicon algae earth". Yawn. At least the Sino-Japanese and Sino-Korean versions substitute 珪 "jade table used as a symbol of authority in ancient times" for 硅 "silicon".

[WeepingElf]

Your taste may differ, but I feel that 電影院 'electric shadowplay' for 'cinema' has some poetic value. Good enough for naming my band (which hasn't started yet) that way.

[linguoboy]

Your taste may differ, but I feel that 電影院 'electric shadowplay' for 'cinema' has some poetic value.

院 doesn't mean "play", it means "courtyard". Nowadays it's common in terms for large public buildings, e.g. 學院 "academy", 醫院 "hospital".

[Rui]

On the topic of "electric" though, I have always liked the way the Chinese come up with new terms of things involving electricity, mostly 电影 (as previously mentioned), 电脑 ("computer" but literally "electric brain"), 电池 ("battery" but literally "electric pool") and 电话 ("telephone" but literally "electric speech"). Doesn't seem like they don't appeal to you as much as they do to me.

[linguoboy]

On the topic of "electric" though, I have always liked the way the Chinese come up with new terms of things involving electricity, mostly 电影 (as previously mentioned), 电脑 ("computer" but literally "electric brain"), 电池 ("battery" but literally "electric pool") and 电话 ("telephone" but literally "electric speech").

Do they use 电脑 in the PRC these days? When I first started learning Chinese, it was a strictly Taiwanese expression.

The whole idea of using 電 as a combining element in these sorts of words is actually a Japanese innovation. The initial coinages like 電報 "telegraph" were borrowed back into Chinese and became the model for later neologisms.

Doesn't seem like they don't appeal to you as much as they do to me.

[gach]

Speaking of electricity, coining new words for technical concepts to replace competing loans can result in interesting solutions. Finnish uses sähkö for electricity which was coined purposefully in the mid 19th century. It was inspired by verbs like sähistä ("hiss") and säkenöidä ("sparkle") but can't be derived regularly from any source.

Other technical terms that were were coined but sadly never took on are tarmo for energy and erkale for quantum. The first of these would have been a secondary use for an already existing word with the base meaning of "vigour". The second is a derivation based on erkaantua ("diverge, get separated") and ultimately on erä which appears in a large number of words having something to do with distinction or separation. Also the final derivational part -le appears in some words signifying individuated units, like leikkele ("cold cut meat"). Together these words would have given tarmoerkale for "photon", which is still a prominent part of the local physics folklore.

The elements hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen have nice etymologies in different languages. The Finnish words for hydrogen and oxygen correspond to what you'll find in many other language, vety ("hyrdogen") ~ vesi ("water") and happi ("oxygen") ~ hapan ("sour"). The word for nitrogen, typpi, comes from typehtyä ("get extinguished") and reflects the fact that a nitrogen atmosphere doesn't support fire.

[Ambrisio]

名词

Estonian does the same thing: nimisõna <- nimi 'name' (borrowed from an IE language, perhaps?) + sõna 'word'

[linguoboy]

Speaking of electricity, coining new words for technical concepts to replace competing loans can result in interesting solutions. Finnish uses sähkö for electricity which was coined purposefully in the mid 19th century. It was inspired by verbs like sähistä ("hiss") and säkenöidä ("sparkle") but can't be derived regularly from any source.

I think German was on the road to make more extensive use of Funk- ("spark") but rather early on that became specialised to "radio-", e.g. funkgesteuert "radio-controlled" (lit. "spark-steered").

The metonymy of these terms fascinates me. Other languages get more mileage out of words for "wire". In Osage, most names for modern technology incorporate mąze "metal".

ETA: Examples:

mązeie "metal talk" (telephone, radio, tape player, etc.)
mązehtahtaze "metal clacking" (typewriter)
mązewepaache "metal sew-stuff-with-it" (sewing machine)

[----]

Navajo uses the word for metal (béésh) in a lot of technological things too. Speaking of Navajo, I always thought it was cool that the word for electricity is atsiniltłʼish which originally meant 'lightning'. Do any other languages have that correspondence?

[linguoboy]

Navajo uses the word for metal (béésh) in a lot of technological things too. Speaking of Navajo, I always thought it was cool that the word for electricity is atsiniltłʼish which originally meant 'lightning'. Do any other languages have that correspondence?

Most, I would think. That's actually the etymological meaning of 電. (The upper element is 雨 "rain".)

[Astraios]

The Hebrew ħašmal is an interesting word. Translated from Hebrew Wiktionary:

The word appears in the Bible three times*, once in the form ħašmalā. Each appearance refers to God's revelation and follows the word kəʕēn ["as an/the eye of"]. The precise Biblical meaning is unclear, but most researchers agree that it refers to something sparkling. Some of the suggested meanings are based on a comparison to the Akkadian words ḫašmānu (a bluish stone), ešmarū (white gold), elmēšu (a precious stone that shines with a yellow light).
In the Septuagint the word was translated as ἤλεκτρον (electron), probably meaning a mixture of silver and white gold, but later it served to describe amber. The name electricity was given to the form of energy in the seventeenth century (see on this subject the etymology of electronics). Inspired by the word's development in foreign languages, the word ħašmalā was revived by Judah Leib Gordon** in his poem Two Yosef ben Shim'ons: "The light, the heat, the steam, the electricity". In a note on the poem he wrote: "My intention was the natural force called elektritsitet, because the Greek translation of ħašmal is elektra". Gordon wanted to revive the word ħašmal with another meaning, but it was absorbed in its final form.

* Namely, Ezekiel 1:4, 1:27, 8:2.
** sometime in the 19th century


Lakota simply repurposed the word for lightning, wakȟáŋgli, lit. supernatural-return.here:PRF.


Persian uses the word barq which is a borrowing from the Arabic word for lightning (the Hebrew cognate is bārāq 'lightning'). Arabic uses the word kahrabā' which is a borrowing from the Persian word for 'amber' kahrobâ. Which is all a bit silly when you look at it. (And kahrobâ 'amber' is apparently derived from kâh 'straw' and robâ 'robs', which is even odder).

[linguoboy]

The Hebrew ħašmal is an interesting word.

Yeah, I've sometimes thought about what the effect of all that creative repurposing of Biblical Hebrew must be like for native speakers of Modern Hebrew.

When I first came across the Modern Welsh word trydan, it was in an article discussion how it had failed to gain much footing in the dialects due to the established English borrowing lectric. (Now it seems that universal Welsh-medium education may have reversed that trend.) So I know it's a neologism, but I've no idea what the derivation is.

[Astraios]

Yeah, I've sometimes thought about what the effect of all that creative repurposing of Biblical Hebrew must be like for native speakers of Modern Hebrew.

I don't know, it's not much of a problem. The grammatical differences aren't enough to be a barrier; the biggest change there is just the loss of the biblical narrative conjugation and the tensifying of the aspectual difference between the prefixal and suffixal conjugations. The vocabulary differences are stronger, it makes it somewhat like speaking Scouse and reading the Tanakh in Shakespearian sonnets, but not really enough that you can't just pick it up and read most of it unaided.

[linguoboy]

Yeah, I've sometimes thought about what the effect of all that creative repurposing of Biblical Hebrew must be like for native speakers of Modern Hebrew.

I don't know, it's not much of a problem. The grammatical differences aren't enough to be a barrier; the biggest change there is just the loss of the biblical narrative conjugation and the tensifying of the aspectual difference between the prefixal and suffixal conjugations. The vocabulary differences are stronger, it makes it somewhat like speaking Scouse and reading the Tanakh in Shakespearian sonnets, but not really enough that you can't just pick it up and read most of it unaided.

Not really what I meant. I was talking specifically about the cumulative effect of using obscure words with disputed or outdated meanings for everyday objects or scientific concepts like "electricity". If nothing else, it must alter the mental picture that forms when you read a biblical passage.

I imagine Icelanders experience something similar when they're reading a saga and the word for "electricity" or "computer screen" pops up, and they have to remind themselves that the ordinary meaning of the word would be anachronistic in this context.

[Nortaneous]

If I was reading the Bible and it said God had electric eyes I'd just go with it for the cool factor.

[WeepingElf]

Your taste may differ, but I feel that 電影院 'electric shadowplay' for 'cinema' has some poetic value.

院 doesn't mean "play", it means "courtyard". Nowadays it's common in terms for large public buildings, e.g. 學院 "academy", 醫院 "hospital".

Thank you for correcting me; I know close to nothing about Chinese. Perhaps this "electric shadowplay" thing is just a myth; anyway, it sounds cool as a band name