Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

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CatDoom
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Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by CatDoom »

In the Pathfinder Chronicles tabletop rpg setting, there's a criminal organization known as the Sczarni. They're associated with the Varisians, who are more-or-less fantasy counterparts to the Roma people, with a lot of generic Hollywood eastern-Europeanisms thrown in. As a game written by English-speakers for a predominantly English-speaking audience, names of people and places in the setting are, for the most part, pronounced as one would expect them to be in English, even when they are clearly borrowed from a language with a significantly different phonology.

"-arni," therefore, is naturally pronounced as either [ɑɹni] or [ɑːni], depending on what part of the Anglosphere you happen to be from. "Scz-," on the other hand, defies straightforward analysis, but the developer has stated that it's meant to be pronounced as [zk]. This piqued my curiosity, and I've spent a little time digging around on Wikipedia looking at orthographies, trying to find some justification for the odd spelling. I was interested to see if the word had any real-world pseudo-etymology, but so far I'm drawing a blank

So, does anybody know of a Latin alphabet orthography under which the intial cluster written <scz> would be pronounced as [zk]?

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by vec »

No, that makes no sense.
vec

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Hallow XIII
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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Hallow XIII »

No, it is just D&D being D&D. The only orthography I know of where <scz> might possibly mean anything is Polish (maybe Hungarian?) but I am not sure [sts`] is an allowable cluster.
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Aili Meilani
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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Aili Meilani »

Hallow XIII wrote:The only orthography I know of where <scz> might possibly mean anything is Polish (maybe Hungarian?) but I am not sure [sts`] is an allowable cluster.
It is.

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by ---- »

Really? I always thought sibilant clusters in Polish assimilated. In any case that's definitely not Hungarian. <cz> doesn't mean anything special in that language, and even if it did occur, it would be pronounced [ts:].

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Aili Meilani »

Theta wrote:Really? I always thought sibilant clusters in Polish assimilated.
Really. They do assimilate most of the time, but they don't have to: sczepić, sczernieć, sczerstwieć, sczeznąć, sczytać.

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Nortaneous »

CatDoom wrote:So, does anybody know of a Latin alphabet orthography under which the intial cluster written <scz> would be pronounced as [zk]?
There isn't one.

There might be an obscure historical one where <scz> [sk] makes sense, but the developers almost certainly aren't familiar with it if it exists.
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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by CatDoom »

Not terribly surprising, but even so, thanks everybody!

If I had to guess, I'd assume that somebody just liked the look of Polish words like the one's Aino Meilani brought up, and pretty much pulled the pronunciation out of thin air.

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Ambrisio »

Maybe it's really Szczarni -- and we all know how to pronounce that.

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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Pole, the »

Hmm, there is a word in Polish that is similar: czarni [ts̠aɾɲi], meaning "the black ones".
Theta wrote:Really? I always thought sibilant clusters in Polish assimilated. In any case that's definitely not Hungarian. <cz> doesn't mean anything special in that language, and even if it did occur, it would be pronounced [ts:].
Hmm, there is a handful of Polish words beginning with scz- — most of them being derivations — i.a.:
sczechizować/sczeszczyćto fully czechize
sczepiaćto link/glue together
sczerniećto fully become black
sczerstwiećto fully become stale
sczerwieniećto fully become red
sczesaćto comb off
sczeznąćto fully die/vanish
sczochraćto fully tousle
sczytywaćto read out
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Re: Odd Cluster/Orthography Question

Post by Hallow XIII »

CatDoom wrote:Not terribly surprising, but even so, thanks everybody!

If I had to guess, I'd assume that somebody just liked the look of Polish words like the one's Aino Meilani brought up, and pretty much pulled the pronunciation out of thin air.
And this is why I am a conworlding snob.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
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Read all about my excellent conlangs
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