whenever and wherever in other languages

[chris_notts]

I have been working on some simple original folk stories in a conlang, and I am currently trying to decide what the equivalent of the English -ever series should be. A simple example might be:

Wherever he goes, he always has an English breakfast

This could be paraphrased as:

It doesn't matter where he goes, ....
In any place that he goes, ...

How do other natural languages express this kind of construction? Is it common to have a special set of words or special construction for this meaning, or do most natural languages use something more like my English?

I've tried looking in the grammars I have handy, but very few of them seem to specifically discuss the translational equivalent of the English -ever series. This could just mean that those languages have no special words or construction though.

Any examples of how this is expressed in other natural languages would be helpful.

[Astraios]

Hebrew uses a construction '[interrogative] that-not':

לאן שלא ילך
le'án šeló yeléx...
to-where that-not he:will:go
wherever he goes...

מה שלא עשית
ma šeló asíta...
what that-not you:did
whatever you did...

[chris_notts]

I have been looking in dictionaries as well, although they tend to be poor for descriptions of multiword constructions. The following is 'wherever' in a Basque dictionary:

http://www1.euskadi.net/morris/resultado.asp

1. ( non ) we'll find them ~ they are nonahi ere dauden, aurkitu egingo ditugu | aurkitu egingo ditugu, dauden tokian daudela; ~ he may be dagoen tokian dagoela
b. ~ could they be? non ote daude?
2. ( nora ) ~ such people go, they are made welcome inora joaten direnean, horrelako pertsonak ondo hartzen dituzte beti

From here, we have for example:

dauden tokian daudela = that they are in the place where they are
inora joaten direnean = when they go anywhere

[din]

Dutch doesn't really have a direct equivalent. I would translate your sentence as:

"Hij eet een Engels ontbijt waar hij ook heen gaat"
'waar+heen' is like whereto, and the 'ook' adds the element of unspecificity.

If you just wanted to say wherever, I would say 'waar dan ook'. An example from the wild: "Lokaliseer je GSM, waar dan ook ter wereld!", literally: wherever in the world

Similarly, you could say 'wat dan ook' for whatever, 'wie dan ook' for whoever and 'hoe dan ook' for however, but they're not as flexible as their English equivalents.

If you want me to translate more English sentences into Dutch using any of these constructions, let me know.

[chris_notts]

Hebrew uses a construction '[interrogative] that-not':

לאן שלא ילך
le'án šeló yeléx...
to-where that-not he:will:go
wherever he goes...

מה שלא עשית
ma šeló asíta...
what that-not you:did
whatever you did...

That's cool, although I'm not sure I understand the reason behind it. Is it because of my lack of understanding of Hebrew syntax, or is it a non-transparent construction in modern Hebrew?

[Yagia]

I have been working on some simple original folk stories in a conlang, and I am currently trying to decide what the equivalent of the English -ever series should be. A simple example might be:

Wherever he goes, he always has an English breakfast

This could be paraphrased as:

It doesn't matter where he goes, ....
In any place that he goes, ...

How do other natural languages express this kind of construction? Is it common to have a special set of words or special construction for this meaning, or do most natural languages use something more like my English?

I've tried looking in the grammars I have handy, but very few of them seem to specifically discuss the translational equivalent of the English -ever series. This could just mean that those languages have no special words or construction though.

Any examples of how this is expressed in other natural languages would be helpful.

Dutch:
Gelukkig nieuwjaar, waar je ook bent, wat je ook hebt gedaan, hoe je je nu ook voelt! Wees gelukkig, hoe dan ook!
literally translated, this reads: Happy new year, where you *too, also* are, what you have *too, also* done, how you yourself now * too, also* feel! Be happy, how than * too, also* !

Dutch of course is very close to English, as you see in the above examples ook which literally means 'too, also', is used as some kind of adverbial modifier.
To my knowledge, French, Italian and Spanish do more ore less the same adding 'que' (than) to adverbs like 'what', 'how' etc. French: pour une quelconque raison - for whatever reason; Italian: comunque, sia come sia - whatever, it is as it is.

All these seem very standard PIE constructions to me, wonder how it is in Slavic languages or, like, Greek.

[Yagia]

Sorry Din, as I wrote my post you were already ahead of me
beste wensen voor 2014

[Astraios]

That's cool, although I'm not sure I understand the reason behind it. Is it because of my lack of understanding of Hebrew syntax, or is it a non-transparent construction in modern Hebrew?

I'd say it's transparent, but I'm not exactly sure how. The indefinite parallel (i.e. 'somewhere', 'something', etc.) uses '[interrogative] that-it(:is)' (sometimes written as a single word):

הוא ילך לאן שהוא
hu yeléx le'án še-hu
he he:will:go to-where that-it(:is)
he will go somewhere

עשית משהו
asíta ma-še-hu
you:did what-that-it(:is)
you did something

I suppose the opposite of hu 'it(:is)' could then be lo '(it:is:)not', giving "what it is" (something) and "what it isn't" (whatever, anything), but that doesn't really seem to make much sense.

[finlay]

I have been working on some simple original folk stories in a conlang, and I am currently trying to decide what the equivalent of the English -ever series should be. A simple example might be:

Wherever he goes, he always has an English breakfast

This could be paraphrased as:

It doesn't matter where he goes, ....
In any place that he goes, ...

How do other natural languages express this kind of construction? Is it common to have a special set of words or special construction for this meaning, or do most natural languages use something more like my English?

I've tried looking in the grammars I have handy, but very few of them seem to specifically discuss the translational equivalent of the English -ever series. This could just mean that those languages have no special words or construction though.

Any examples of how this is expressed in other natural languages would be helpful.

In Japanese, these are どこでも (doko demo/wherever)、何でも (nan demo/whatever)、いつでも (itsu demo/whenever). They're usually translated as things like anywhere, anytime. Doko, nan/nani, itsu, etc are the usual words for where, what and when. I'm not really sure what demo would mean on its own – sometimes it means "but" but I think that's a different word really. Mo means "also", and if you say どこも、何も、いつも, etc (ie dokomo, nanimo, itsumo), they mean every_ (ie everywhere, everything, always).

However, I'm not sure how to translate the above sentence because I suspect based on a cursory google translate that mo or demo comes after the verb instead of the question word itself.

[Hallow XIII]

German uses (interrogative) auch immer, which is the same thing English does but with auch "also" inserted between the interrogative and "ever".

Wo auch immer

wherever

er

he

hingeht,

go_to-3PS

er

he

isst

eat-3PS

immer

always

ein

ART_INDEF

englisches

English

Frühstück.

breakfast

French on the other hand uses a construction with n'importe "it is not important..."

N'importe

not important

où

where

il

he

va,

go.3PS

il

he

prit

take-3PS

toujours

always

un

ART_INDEF

petit-déjeuner

breakfast

anglais.

English

Mandarin works very similarly:

他去无论何处，都吃英式早餐。

Tā

he

qù

go

wúlùn

no matter

hé

which

chù,

place

dōu

all

chī

eat

yīng

English

shì

style

zǎocān.

breakfast

More colloquially you can just say

他去哪儿都吃英式早餐。

Tā

he

qù

go

nǎr

where

dōu

all

chī

eat

yīng

English

shì

style

zǎocān.

breakfast

[Rui]

他去无论何处，都吃英式早餐。

Tā

he

qù

go

wúlùn

no matter

hé

which

chù,

place

dōu

all

chī

eat

yīng

English

shì

style

zǎocān.

breakfast

This sentence makes no sense, the words are all jumbled! Should be:

无论去哪里，他都吃英式早餐。
wúlùn qù nǎlǐ, tā dōu chī yīngshì zǎocān.
no.matter go where, he all eat English breakfast.

无论 is almost always used with an interrogative, and generally comes at the beginning of the sentence (I think you could also say 无论去何处, but 无论去哪里 is more common. 何处 sounds very literary). Your second sentence was right though.

[ol bofosh]

"Qualquier" can be used for "whatever" in Spanish.
whenever - qualquier momento
whereever - qualquier sitio

I noticed that the subjunctive can be used to translate phrases with INT-ever.
whereever he goes - "a donde ande" (or something like that; please correct me, anyone that knows better)

[Thry]

What's up with that qua- thing ??

whenever he wants =
Cuando sea que (él) quiera, "when it may be that he wants"

wherever you like =
Donde sea que te guste, "where it may be that you like"

sure, also, "en cualquier momento que él quiera" ... "en cualquier sitio que él quiera"
which is more like "in any moment / place he likes"

Ol Bofosh, both subjunctive and indicative can have that effect, i.e. "hace lo que quiere" = "he does whatever he wants"; "no dejes que haga lo que quiera" = "don't let him do whatever he wants"; "no dejes que haga lo que quiere" = "don't let him do what [the specific thing] he wants".

In Irlandic I use qual- compound correlatives:
Qualcond volyas. = wherever you like
Qualquand seia. = whenever it is

[ol bofosh]

What's up with that qua- thing ??

A test to see if the agents of the RAE are watching.

[chris_notts]

"Hij eet een Engels ontbijt waar hij ook heen gaat"
'waar+heen' is like whereto, and the 'ook' adds the element of unspecificity.

If you just wanted to say wherever, I would say 'waar dan ook'. An example from the wild: "Lokaliseer je GSM, waar dan ook ter wereld!", literally: wherever in the world

Similarly, you could say 'wat dan ook' for whatever, 'wie dan ook' for whoever and 'hoe dan ook' for however, but they're not as flexible as their English equivalents.

Dutch:
Gelukkig nieuwjaar, waar je ook bent, wat je ook hebt gedaan, hoe je je nu ook voelt! Wees gelukkig, hoe dan ook!
literally translated, this reads: Happy new year, where you *too, also* are, what you have *too, also* done, how you yourself now * too, also* feel! Be happy, how than * too, also* !

Dutch of course is very close to English, as you see in the above examples ook which literally means 'too, also', is used as some kind of adverbial modifier.

German uses (interrogative) auch immer, which is the same thing English does but with auch "also" inserted between the interrogative and "ever".

Wo auch immer

wherever

er

he

hingeht,

go_to-3PS

er

he

isst

eat-3PS

immer

always

ein

ART_INDEF

englisches

English

Frühstück.

breakfast

So far, then, our sample of three Germanic languages all do similar things - interrogative + one or more adverbs, although the location and exact meaning of the adverb varies.

[chris_notts]

In Japanese, these are どこでも (doko demo/wherever)、何でも (nan demo/whatever)、いつでも (itsu demo/whenever). They're usually translated as things like anywhere, anytime. Doko, nan/nani, itsu, etc are the usual words for where, what and when. I'm not really sure what demo would mean on its own – sometimes it means "but" but I think that's a different word really. Mo means "also", and if you say どこも、何も、いつも, etc (ie dokomo, nanimo, itsumo), they mean every_ (ie everywhere, everything, always).

However, I'm not sure how to translate the above sentence because I suspect based on a cursory google translate that mo or demo comes after the verb instead of the question word itself.

So you think the construction would look something like doko ... GO demo? Which would be something like "where ... goes but, ..."?

[Hallow XIII]

This sentence makes no sense, the words are all jumbled!

Ffffffff.

Dictionaries without usage examples are worthless!

Tangentially: I am surprised 无论 is used at all in non-literary contexts.

[merijn]

In Zulu you use noma which means "even though" and "or", followed by a wh-question, so your sentence would be (be aware I am not a native speaker, so this may be wrong, especially the placement of njalo "always" and the translation of English breakfast)
noma e-ya-phi, uyadla isidlo sasekuseni sesiNgisi
though he-go-where, he-eats meal of-morning of-English

Note that in this case the wh-phrase is a clitic, and I wouldn't analyze it as being one word with the verb syntactically.

[ObsequiousNewt]

Latin reduplicates the interrogative pronoun (quisquis, cuiuscuius).

[Izambri]

What's up with that qua- thing ??

Catalan influence XD

[Thry]

ho sé xD mateu-lo

[Rui]

Tangentially: I am surprised 无论 is used at all in non-literary contexts.

I'm pretty sure I've heard it in non-formal contexts before, but in speech 不管 seems to be preferred I guess.

[Izambri]

Catalan has allà on and onsevulla on / onsevulga on.

Thus, Wherever he goes, he always has an English breakfast can be translated as

Allà on va sempre fa un esmorzar anglès
Allà on, lit. "there where".

We could used the Pres. Subj. + Future combination too: Allà on vagi sempre farà un esmorzar anglès.
vagi, in

Onsevulla on vagi sempre fa un esmorzar anglès.
Onsevulla and onsevulga, agglutination of on se vulga "where one wants", vulga / vulla being the 3.SG Pres. Subj. of voler "to want".

[Cedh]

German uses (interrogative) auch immer, which is the same thing English does but with auch "also" inserted between the interrogative and "ever".

Wo auch immer

wherever

er

he

hingeht,

go_to-3PS

er

he

isst

eat-3PS

immer

always

ein

ART_INDEF

englisches

English

Frühstück.

breakfast

So far, then, our sample of three Germanic languages all do similar things - interrogative + one or more adverbs, although the location and exact meaning of the adverb varies.

German also regularly uses the direct translational equivalents of the two English circumlocutions mentioned in the OP. Both of these are actually more common in colloquial speech than the higher-register construction given by Hallow XIII.

[g=no matter]Egal[/g]

wo

where

er

he

hingeht,

go_to-3PS

er

he

isst

eat-3PS

immer

always

ein

ART_INDEF

englisches

English

Frühstück.

breakfast

[g=everywhere]Überall[/g]

wo

where

er

he

hingeht

go_to-3PS

[g=eat-3PS]isst[/g] [g=he]er[/g]

immer

always

ein

ART_INDEF

englisches

English

Frühstück.

breakfast

(Note the syntactic difference in the second part of the sentence: If the first clause is introduced with the preposition überall, it counts as a constituent of the main clause, which means the subject can't appear between the prepositional phrase and the verb because of the V2 constraint in German syntax [btw that's also the reason why this sentence is written without a comma, or else with two commas around wo er hingeht]. If the first clause is introduced with an adverb like egal or wo (auch) immer, it's not necessarily a full constituent and so the subject of the main clause will usually appear before the verb.)

[finlay]

In Japanese, these are どこでも (doko demo/wherever)、何でも (nan demo/whatever)、いつでも (itsu demo/whenever). They're usually translated as things like anywhere, anytime. Doko, nan/nani, itsu, etc are the usual words for where, what and when. I'm not really sure what demo would mean on its own – sometimes it means "but" but I think that's a different word really. Mo means "also", and if you say どこも、何も、いつも, etc (ie dokomo, nanimo, itsumo), they mean every_ (ie everywhere, everything, always).

However, I'm not sure how to translate the above sentence because I suspect based on a cursory google translate that mo or demo comes after the verb instead of the question word itself.

So you think the construction would look something like doko ... GO demo? Which would be something like "where ... goes but, ..."?

Google translate gave something like:
どこへ行っても、
doko=e it-te=mo
where=to go-CNJ=[mo]

(I was hoping one of the other Japanese speakers would swoop in and help because this is something I haven't studied myself yet actually)

The -te form is the conjunctive/gerundive form – で (de) is actually the conjunctive form of the copula, so it fits with the first one.