European languages before Indo-European

[Drydic]

Armenian/Phrygian are frequently linked with Greek, though how accurately I'm not qualified to judge, nor the further link between those groups and Indo-Iranian (though these (except Phrygian?) are the groups with the Augment in the Aorist).

As for Greek substrate, http://www.indo-european.nl/ied/pdf/pre-greek.pdf is tantalising.

Still looking for something meaty on Folkish.

[8Deer]

I need to learn the Greek alphabet I guess, cause that pre-Greek paper looks fascinating.

As for Folkish, I've seen people say that a third of proto-Germanic's lexicon came from pre-Germanic sources, and yet I've never seen any examples. The only thing I can find is this list on Wikipedia, which is not all that convincing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_s ... _languages

[jal]

The only thing I can find is this list on Wikipedia, which is not all that convincing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_s ... _languages

I checked a subset with etymonline, and for a number of them there's indeed a PrG root of "unknown origin" or "no known cognate outside Germanic", but for others there's PIE roots listed.


JAL

[8Deer]

I just meant not convincing in the sense that it doesn't have any references or proto-Germanic forms of the words.

[jal]

I just meant not convincing in the sense that it doesn't have any references or proto-Germanic forms of the words.

Well, that's Wikipedia for ya. But etymonline does have the PGm words.


JAL

[Soap]

No, there is a reference, it just isn't accessible online. It's

John A. Hawkins (1990), Germanic Languages, in The Major Languages of Western Europe, Bernard Comrie, ed. (Routledge). ISBN 0-415-04738-2

But that doesn't mean it's "correct", it just means that's what Dr Hawkins theorized in 1990.

[TomHChappell]

Thanks to all the responders on this page so far.

[zmeiat_joro]

merijn : I wonder if this could have something to do with your confusion, if you are a native English speaker, about animacy: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2592

[TaylorS]

I decided to revive this thread because Jorg has his Hesperic languages spoken by the Bell Beaker Culture, but in a book on European Prehistory I have by Jean Manco called Ancestral Journeys the author argues that the Bell Beaker Folk were speakers of Proto-Italo-Celtic.

Also, Manco argues based on genetics (like lactose tolerance and having Y-Haplogroup R1b) that the Basques must came from somewhere in the Balkans following the collapse of Copper Age "Old Europe" around 4000 BC. In fact she argues that there was a general wave of migration of non-IE peoples out of the Balkans at this time.

[WeepingElf]

I decided to revive this thread because Jorg has his Hesperic languages spoken by the Bell Beaker Culture, but in a book on European Prehistory I have by Jean Manco called Ancestral Journeys the author argues that the Bell Beaker Folk were speakers of Proto-Italo-Celtic.

Also, Manco argues based on genetics (like lactose tolerance and having Y-Haplogroup R1b) that the Basques must came from somewhere in the Balkans following the collapse of Copper Age "Old Europe" around 4000 BC. In fact she argues that there was a general wave of migration of non-IE peoples out of the Balkans at this time.

Maybe. My Hesperic family is of course just a speculative entity. But I feel that Italo-Celtic is just not old enough for Bell Beaker, and that Bell Beaker was a refugee movement that was triggered by the influx of the IE Corded Ware group into Central Europe. Alas, we don't know.

But thanks for digging out this thread, TaylorS!

[TaylorS]

I decided to revive this thread because Jorg has his Hesperic languages spoken by the Bell Beaker Culture, but in a book on European Prehistory I have by Jean Manco called Ancestral Journeys the author argues that the Bell Beaker Folk were speakers of Proto-Italo-Celtic.

Also, Manco argues based on genetics (like lactose tolerance and having Y-Haplogroup R1b) that the Basques must came from somewhere in the Balkans following the collapse of Copper Age "Old Europe" around 4000 BC. In fact she argues that there was a general wave of migration of non-IE peoples out of the Balkans at this time.

[quote="WeepingElf"Maybe. My Hesperic family is of course just a speculative entity. But I feel that Italo-Celtic is just not old enough for Bell Beaker, and that Bell Beaker was a refugee movement that was triggered by the influx of the IE Corded Ware group into Central Europe. Alas, we don't know.

But thanks for digging out this thread, TaylorS![/quote]

You're welcome! Oh god was Octaviano such a dick, LOL!

[WeepingElf]

You're welcome! Oh god was Octaviano such a dick, LOL!

Yes. He was hilarious in an unintended way. He meant everything he wrote seriously, but it was so far off the mark that one can only laugh about it

[jal]

Yes. He was hilarious in an unintended way. He meant everything he wrote seriously, but it was so far off the mark that one can only laugh about it ;)

His blog is still up, almost daily posting etymologies of random words in random European languages that have, according to him, faulty accepted etymologies, with a "constructed" new etymology. Quite hilareous. Reminds me a bit of the Reptile Evolution guy, who has, in excruciating detail, the most bogus theories about, you guessed it, reptile evolution (such as that birds aren't dinosaurs, etc.).


JAL

[gach]

Reminds me a bit of the Reptile Evolution guy

Oh him. His reconstructions look nice but are quite fittingly riddled by interpretations of soft tissue remnants and such which no one else expect him can see in the fossils.

[jal]

Reminds me a bit of the Reptile Evolution guy

His reconstructions look nice but are quite fittingly riddled by interpretations of soft tissue remnants and such which no one else expect him can see in the fossils.

He's an amazing artist, but uses the total bogus "digital tracing technique" to "enhance" fossils. Basically it means "use a gazillion Photoshop filters until you see something that looks like an outline", and use that for "reconstruction". See also here for Darren Naish's thorough debunking.


JAL

[KathTheDragon]

Having read through the thread, I can't imagine how you put up with Octaviano for so long.

[Salmoneus]

Oh, that guy! Came across him when I was looking at pterosaur stuff. Didn't know he was A Guy.

[TaylorS]

Yes. He was hilarious in an unintended way. He meant everything he wrote seriously, but it was so far off the mark that one can only laugh about it

His blog is still up, almost daily posting etymologies of random words in random European languages that have, according to him, faulty accepted etymologies, with a "constructed" new etymology. Quite hilareous. Reminds me a bit of the Reptile Evolution guy, who has, in excruciating detail, the most bogus theories about, you guessed it, reptile evolution (such as that birds aren't dinosaurs, etc.).


JAL

Wait, there are STILL people who can't accept that birds are theropod dinosaurs? Christ, just watch a large flightless bird run around and then try and tell me that birds aren't theropods.

[Nortaneous]

birds aren't real. birds are a prescientific myth and it's high time that we purged this nonsense from our speech. when i go to mcdonald's, i sit by the window and watch the dinosaurs outside peck at bread crumbs

[Nortaneous]

there are dinosaurs that have figured out how to use tools and they've infiltrated every single one of our cities

[Nortaneous]

remake jurassic park with geese and australian kicking dinosaurs

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

birds aren't real. birds are a prescientific myth and it's high time that we purged this nonsense from our speech. when i go to mcdonald's, i sit by the window and watch the dinosaurs outside peck at bread crumbs

Finally, someone who makes some fucking sense.

[Tropylium]

The main point being, I gather, that dinosaurs being pre-Indo-European is currently considered uncontroversial?

[CatDoom]

The main point being, I gather, that dinosaurs being pre-Indo-European is currently considered uncontroversial?

Not if you buy into the Paleozoic Continuity Theory.

[jal]

birds aren't real. birds are a prescientific myth and it's high time that we purged this nonsense from our speech. when i go to mcdonald's, i sit by the window and watch the dinosaurs outside peck at bread crumbs

I like to think that dinosaurs aren't real. They're just fossil birds.


JAL