The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

[WeepingElf]

So probably all of you have looked as the name "Westeros" and had the same thought: looks like a PIE word. Anyone played around with the etymology at all? I guess the most plausible root is *wes- "stay, dwell", but there are plenty of other possibilities, including some which incorporate *wekʷsperos somehow.

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

I think Martin said so himself. And that's why HBO hired David Peterson.

[Astraios]

I've spent an inordinate amount of time over the years trying to backetymologise terrible conlanging. I actually kind of enjoy it.

I remember being so excited finding a conlang in the Eragon books, and then getting really cross when I realised it was a cipher.

[KathTheDragon]

Same. I even spent hours trying and trying to decipher the grammar, then discovered there wasn't much of one.

[Sleinad Flar]

On a tangent, how likely is it that the 3pl ending -ént(i) ~ -nt(i) derives from an older 3pl looking something like -én- ~ -n- to which the 3s ending -t(i) was suffixed?

Not that unlikely, especially because there is also a 3rd plural ending -r or -rs (mostly found in the 'perfect' conjugation, as evidenced by a.o. Latin -ere and -erunt, Hittite preterite -er and Sanskrit -uh.) and r/n-alternation is also known from the nominal heteroclitic declension (type Latin femur, femininis and Hittite eshar, ishanas). Active -ti/-n-ti would also match up with middle -o/-r-o.

(I remain skeptical though; it simply looks to good to be true.)

[KathTheDragon]

As if by magic, whilst working on a diachronic dictionary for my IE family, I found this attestation from the Rig Veda in Morrígan's spreadsheat: abibhran [3pl.impf.act.] 'to carry'. Looks to be *e-bʱi-bʱr-o/e-n to me. Chances are, though, this is too good to be true.

[Sleinad Flar]

Ah, but Sanskrit simply deletes final -t here, as -nt isn't a permissible termination in that language. See for example also the participles and nt-stem adjectives (bharan, bharantam < *bhéronts, *bhérontm). As a result, -an has become the regular secondary 3pl ending in Sanskrit.

[KathTheDragon]

Aw, that's a bummer.

[Chagen]

So probably all of you have looked as the name "Westeros" and had the same thought: looks like a PIE word. Anyone played around with the etymology at all? I guess the most plausible root is *wes- "stay, dwell", but there are plenty of other possibilities, including some which incorporate *wekʷsperos somehow.

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

The utter lack of respect fantasy authors give to conlanging when they frequently spend pages masturbating over incredibly minute and useless historical accuracy can drive me into a deep deep depression at times.

[Zaarin]

So probably all of you have looked as the name "Westeros" and had the same thought: looks like a PIE word. Anyone played around with the etymology at all? I guess the most plausible root is *wes- "stay, dwell", but there are plenty of other possibilities, including some which incorporate *wekʷsperos somehow.

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

The utter lack of respect fantasy authors give to conlanging when they frequently spend pages masturbating over incredibly minute and useless historical accuracy can drive me into a deep deep depression at times.

Indeed. Since Welsh was an inspiration for Sindarin, it seems like most fantasy since has operated under the assumption that "really bad Welsh = fantasy!!! lulz"

[TaylorS]

So probably all of you have looked as the name "Westeros" and had the same thought: looks like a PIE word. Anyone played around with the etymology at all? I guess the most plausible root is *wes- "stay, dwell", but there are plenty of other possibilities, including some which incorporate *wekʷsperos somehow.

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

The utter lack of respect fantasy authors give to conlanging when they frequently spend pages masturbating over incredibly minute and useless historical accuracy can drive me into a deep deep depression at times.

Indeed. Since Welsh was an inspiration for Sindarin, it seems like most fantasy since has operated under the assumption that "really bad Welsh = fantasy!!! lulz"

Really bad Welsh spiced with apostrophes.

[Particles the Greek]

So probably all of you have looked as the name "Westeros" and had the same thought: looks like a PIE word. Anyone played around with the etymology at all? I guess the most plausible root is *wes- "stay, dwell", but there are plenty of other possibilities, including some which incorporate *wekʷsperos somehow.

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

The utter lack of respect fantasy authors give to conlanging when they frequently spend pages masturbating over incredibly minute and useless historical accuracy can drive me into a deep deep depression at times.

Indeed. Since Welsh was an inspiration for Sindarin, it seems like most fantasy since has operated under the assumption that "really bad Welsh = fantasy!!! lulz"

Really bad Welsh spiced with apostrophes.

Or, worse, Irish translated word-for-word with a dictionary and ignorance of the difference between nouns and verbs.

[Zaarin]

Or, worse, Irish translated word-for-word with a dictionary and ignorance of the difference between nouns and verbs.

And if you're not in a Celtic mood, bad Latin will do just as well. Just take common words and ad "-us" to them. Also works for Sith lords, apparently. Or, as with Irish, translate word-for-word with no respect to case or declension or conjugation.

[Ryan of Tinellb]

"Burns Verkaufen Der Kraftwerk".

[Ryan of Tinellb]

Anyway, the reason I came to this thread tonight was to post something amusing I found trying to find the PIE word for 'colo(u)r'. I did a quick search on this board and it doesn't look like anyone's mentioned it before.

http://www.academia.edu/3287583/PIE_Roo ... _Code_2.0_

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

[jal]

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

I call bullshit, without knowing anything about Indo European.


JAL

[sangi39]

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

I call bullshit, without knowing anything about Indo European.


JAL

It also seems, although it's not entirely clear, that the writer classes Basque as an IE language.

Also, what exactly are the m-acute and r-acute they're talking about? I've never seen them in PIE except as stressed syllabic consonants, but the description the writer gives seems to be different from this?

[KathTheDragon]

m-acute is apparently an n-like consonant which IE merged with m, but Iberian kept distinct. They say that Iberian's IE too (at some level) so yeah. I didn't look far enough to get to r-acute.

[Richard W]

Also, what exactly are the m-acute and r-acute they're talking about? I've never seen them in PIE except as stressed syllabic consonants, but the description the writer gives seems to be different from this?

The precursors of <ḿ> and <ŕ> in Iberian and <n> and <r> or <rr> in Basque. Villamor doesn't offer a phonetic reconstruction for PIE. If there be any merit in his analysis, I suggest [ŋ] or [ɲ] for his *ḿ.

[Richard W]

The guess is that Iberian <r> and <ŕ> are trill and flap, but which is which is unknown. Villamor’s posits a correspondence with Basque <r> and <rr>, but has not sorted out the correspondence of the rhotics. It is obviously an impossible problem to solve if Basque, Iberian and IE are unrelated.

[Herr Dunkel]

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

I call bullshit, without knowing anything about Indo European.


JAL

It also seems, although it's not entirely clear, that the writer classes Basque as an IE language.

Also, what exactly are the m-acute and r-acute they're talking about? I've never seen them in PIE except as stressed syllabic consonants, but the description the writer gives seems to be different from this?

Indo-European monks transcribing Aquitanian?

[marconatrix]

Given that we have Westeros in the West, Essos in the East, and Sothoryos int he South, I think the answer is "Martin isn't a very good conlanger."

Considering that, by his own admission, his usual strategy for coming up with names in the setting is to take a real world name and change a vowel or two (if that), I don't think it's a big priority of his. As far as I can recall, the only example of spoken Valyrian he gives in the books is "Valar Morghulis," which is an almost hilariously transparent reference to the Silmarillion.

I suspect Martin is more of a history buff than a linguist, considering that the first three books borrow a number of plot points from the English War of the Roses, though they're mixed up with a bunch of other stuff and blenderized into a sort of quasi-historical chutney.

No idea what this is all about until I Google, but maybe the guy went to Wester Ross and liked the place

[Terra]

Anyway, the reason I came to this thread tonight was to post something amusing I found trying to find the PIE word for 'colo(u)r'. I did a quick search on this board and it doesn't look like anyone's mentioned it before.

http://www.academia.edu/3287583/PIE_Roo ... e_Code_2.0_

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

This man seems to aspire to be even more ridiculous than Edo Nyland.

[WeepingElf]

Anyway, the reason I came to this thread tonight was to post something amusing I found trying to find the PIE word for 'colo(u)r'. I did a quick search on this board and it doesn't look like anyone's mentioned it before.

http://www.academia.edu/3287583/PIE_Roo ... e_Code_2.0_

This document posits the concept that all PIE roots were phonosthemic, i.e., that each phoneme in a word has an associated meaning. For example, initial /*p/ means 'body' / 'accumulation', and final /*n/ means 'complete' / 'end' / 'sound'.

This man seems to aspire to be even more ridiculous than Edo Nyland.

So PIE was an oligosynthetic taxonomic language? I don't know wherther it is more ridiculous than Edo Nyland, but it is at least comparable. 800 millinylands at the minimum!

[Neek]

It's not really that an absurd notion if you have no meaningful linguistic experience at all. I think Nyland takes the case with just how ridiculous and impossibly idiotic it sounds to both the lay person and the informed and educated.

[WeepingElf]

It's not really that an absurd notion if you have no meaningful linguistic experience at all. I think Nyland takes the case with just how ridiculous and impossibly idiotic it sounds to both the lay person and the informed and educated.

Sure. So Villamor's idea is worth perhaps just 500 millinylands. But he is certainly considerably nuttier than Octaviano!