Careful Speech
Careful Speech
Some distinctions show up only in perfect speech. For example, in English, medial /t/ becomes [d], merging words like 'latter' and 'ladder'. However, if you asked for somebody to repeat themselves, because they were mumbling, they would slow down and pronounce the /t/ in 'latter' as [t].
Are there any other distinctions in English (or other languages) that are like this?
(Iirc, Legion once mentioned that French's distinction between /œ/ and /œ:/ was like this, iirc.)
Are there any other distinctions in English (or other languages) that are like this?
(Iirc, Legion once mentioned that French's distinction between /œ/ and /œ:/ was like this, iirc.)
Re: Careful Speech
In my dialect, "latter" and "ladder" don't merge: [læɾɹ̩] vs. [lædɹ̩].
This may just be me personally, but for me "since/sense" [sɛns] and "and/end" [ɛnd] are only distinguished in careful speech. Interestingly, I don't merge "pin/pen."
This may just be me personally, but for me "since/sense" [sɛns] and "and/end" [ɛnd] are only distinguished in careful speech. Interestingly, I don't merge "pin/pen."
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Careful Speech
My dialect doesn't merge the two either: [lætɜ] vs. [lædɜ].
You have to be careful when you talk about 'English'. There are so many dialects that generalising to 'English' is virtually impossible for most things.
You have to be careful when you talk about 'English'. There are so many dialects that generalising to 'English' is virtually impossible for most things.
Re: Careful Speech
I do merge ladder and latter. I don't merge since and sense - [ɪ] and [ɛ]. This is consistent with my not merging pin and pen. I do merge and and end, though.
Re: Careful Speech
In my language, I normally devoice word initial /v/ to [f], but in veeeery careful speech I would say [v] and thus distinguish it from /f/.
Also I normally vocalise coda /l/. If someone mishears it I will however pronounce it [ɫ]. The vocalised /l/ very nearly merges with postvocalic /ʋ/.
Also I normally vocalise coda /l/. If someone mishears it I will however pronounce it [ɫ]. The vocalised /l/ very nearly merges with postvocalic /ʋ/.
χʁɵn̩
gʁonɛ̃g
gɾɪ̃slɑ̃
gʁonɛ̃g
gɾɪ̃slɑ̃
Re: Careful Speech
Sorry. "Some" dialects do this (including mine).You have to be careful when you talk about 'English'. There are so many dialects that generalising to 'English' is virtually impossible for most things.
Ah, that reminds me, the [æ] vs [E] distinction happens not only in "and", but also in "am"."and/end" [ɛnd] are only distinguished in careful speech.
Re: Careful Speech
And, for many people (myself included) then vs than.Terra wrote:Ah, that reminds me, the [æ] vs [E] distinction happens not only in "and", but also in "am"."and/end" [ɛnd] are only distinguished in careful speech.
"Careful speech" for me means undoing a lot of shwa deletions. /r/ deletions, too. For instance, [sɚˈpʰɹaɪzd] rather than [səˈpʰɹaɪzd] or [ˈsp(ʰ)ɹaɪzd].
This register can also introduce spelling pronunciations. I remember a funny German cabaret sketch which featured two men trying to communicate with a(n unseen) third person who was evidently not a fluent or perhaps even competent German-speaker. At one point, one of them pronounces the word gesehen "seen" in three distinct syllables. Not only does he treat the first and last shwa as [ɛ], but he aspirates the h, even though this is a purely orthographic device for indicating vowel length and is not now nor has it ever been pronounced [h] in any variety of German I've ever encountred.
Re: Careful Speech
Funny, I would reproduce the first shwa as [e:] in that kind of "spelling pronouciation", as it's in an open syllable; otherwise my spelling pronouciation would be the same, including the [h]. Actually, in this case, the "h" is etymological, so it was pronounced at one point - I don't know when in German language history intervocalic post-stress [h] ceased to be pronounced (or, more precisley, was replaced by a glottal stop), but it must still have been there when the orthographies where established that later led to the convention of using "h" to indicate length and / or an intervocalic glottal stop.linguoboy wrote:I remember a funny German cabaret sketch which featured two men trying to communicate with a(n unseen) third person who was evidently not a fluent or perhaps even competent German-speaker. At one point, one of them pronounces the word gesehen "seen" in three distinct syllables. Not only does he treat the first and last shwa as [ɛ], but he aspirates the h, even though this is a purely orthographic device for indicating vowel length and is not now nor has it ever been pronounced [h] in any variety of German I've ever encountred.
In Russian, careful speech tends to undo the vowel reductions and mergers in unstressed syllables, In "normal" careful speech (e.g. when simply speaking slowly or reading a text), the reductions become less strong; in "spelling / dictation speech" the mergers become undone, espcially the /a/ ~ /o/ merger.
Re: Careful Speech
Oh, right you are. I got the etymologies of sehen and Seen confused and thought there was only a *w here, not a *hw. An unetymological example would be gehen.hwhatting wrote:Actually, in this case, the "h" is etymological, so it was pronounced at one point
Re: Careful Speech
I have the intervocalic flap even in careful speech.
Re: Careful Speech
I hear people enouncing "a" and "the" as /ei/ and /Di/ sometimes, which I've completely trained myself out of, since at least in classes I have to try and speak in a way that my students can copy. So I always use a schwa in both.
Re: Careful Speech
There's a comedian who used to be on SNL back in the day who would introduce himself as, "I'm A. Whitney Brown. One day, I hope to be THE Whitney Brown."finlay wrote:I hear people enouncing "a" and "the" as /ei/ and /Di/ sometimes, which I've completely trained myself out of, since at least in classes I have to try and speak in a way that my students can copy. So I always use a schwa in both.
To this, I would add [æn] for an and [ænd] for and, both of which tend to merge as syllabic /n/ in my ordinary speech.
Re: Careful Speech
In (my) Swedish jag (I) and ja (yes) usually merge, because wordfinal /ɡ/ is elided in some words. But in careful speech I pronunce them [ˈjɑːɡ] resp. [ˈjɑː]. Same goes for other words with final silent Gs.
Re: Careful Speech
I have a somewhat similar story. A couple years ago, I was teaching a Chinese friend how to use/read/form numbers in English. So, she asked me: "How do you read '100'?" I replied "one-hundred". Then I used it in a sentence: "There are a hundred dogs.". She immediately called me out: "You said 'a' not 'one'!" So, I had to try to describe when each was used, which wasn't easy!, because I had never thought about it before.I hear people enouncing "a" and "the" as /ei/ and /Di/ sometimes, which I've completely trained myself out of, since at least in classes I have to try and speak in a way that my students can copy. So I always use a schwa in both.
(Also, numbers are deceptively complex in English; There's different ways to read the same number depending on whether it's an amount or a year. For example, how does one read 1998? If it's a year: "nineteen ninety-eight", if it's an amount: "one-thousand nine-hundred ninety-eight". For a Chinese speaker, it's even more complex, because in Chinese, numbers are separated every 4 digits instead of every 3 digits.)
Re: Careful Speech
Plus the rule on when to use "and" (eg "one thousand nine hundred and ninety-eight"), which only applies to British English apparently, so I often skip it. Or "twentieth" and "thirtieth" getting an extra syllable - [twenti@T] not [twenti:T]. Or twenty-first instead of twenty-oneth, although that's not so surprising in a way. Or yeah, the look of mild despair in my kid students' eyes when they've assumed that a million means 10,000 and I tell them otherwise. Confusingly, they put commas in the numbers in Japan in the same places as in the West and just treat them as decoration (this is in contrast to India, where above 1,000 the commas are put in different places to reflect the lakh/crore system), although it doesn't take too much prodding for them to work out that we use the commas to work out which number we're looking at rather than counting how many zeroes every time.
Actually the bit they have the biggest trouble with is distinguishing 13 and 30, 14 and 40 etc. We have enough trouble with this as native speakers, to be fair, but it's exaggerated when they're learning it.
They're not all that bad, though, considering we're not French or Danish with their semi-vigesimal systems.
Actually the bit they have the biggest trouble with is distinguishing 13 and 30, 14 and 40 etc. We have enough trouble with this as native speakers, to be fair, but it's exaggerated when they're learning it.
They're not all that bad, though, considering we're not French or Danish with their semi-vigesimal systems.
Re: Careful Speech
She had generalized it another way. She also asked why it was 11th, and not 11st; It's 1st, 21st, 31st, etc, after all.Or twenty-first instead of twenty-oneth, although that's not so surprising in a way
I didn't know this, but it makes sense; They want to recreate the Chinese system in English, and the first step is to have a number for 1,0000 to multiply from.Or yeah, the look of mild despair in my kid students' eyes when they've assumed that a million means 10,000 and I tell them otherwise.
I remember a time that a freshman Indian student bravely asked in class "What's a 'grand'?" in "10 grand"? You also have to explain slang like "buck" too. Also, scores for sports games like "17-10" yield questions like: "Why are they subtracting 10 from 17?" Sports are a whole 'nother thing; Most Chinese have no idea how (American) football and baseball work.
Re: Careful Speech
I'd guess that applies to about 90% of none-USAnians.Terra wrote:Most Chinese have no idea how (American) football and baseball work.
Re: Careful Speech
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the commas there: I mean technically I can't speak for China, but here they put the commas in the same place as the usual Western system, so they write 10,000 or 100,000 instead of 1,0000 or 10,0000 (although as often they write it like 1万 or 10万, using a combination of characters and numerals). Incidentally, when I type that in the Japanese IME it gives the options of 100,000, 100000, or 10万, but not 10,0000. I don't know why they do this, but it means that the commas for them are meaningless decorations.Terra wrote:She had generalized it another way. She also asked why it was 11th, and not 11st; It's 1st, 21st, 31st, etc, after all.Or twenty-first instead of twenty-oneth, although that's not so surprising in a way
I didn't know this, but it makes sense; They want to recreate the Chinese system in English, and the first step is to have a number for 1,0000 to multiply from.Or yeah, the look of mild despair in my kid students' eyes when they've assumed that a million means 10,000 and I tell them otherwise.
Re: Careful Speech
Speaking of numbers, here's another good example: 20 [̍tʰwʌni]. But in careful speech I'll say something closer to [ˈtʰwɛnti]. (And this despite the fact that my speech is pin-pen merged.)
Re: Careful Speech
I simply forgot that you are teaching in Japan and not China.I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the commas there: I mean technically I can't speak for China, but here they put the commas in the same place as the usual Western system, so they write 10,000 or 100,000 instead of 1,0000 or 10,0000 (although as often they write it like 1万 or 10万, using a combination of characters and numerals). Incidentally, when I type that in the Japanese IME it gives the options of 100,000, 100000, or 10万, but not 10,0000. I don't know why they do this, but it means that the commas for them are meaningless decorations.
Re: Careful Speech
leaving aside the vowel (the twenny-twunny thing is another whole deal on its own), this is an example of medial -nt- which sometimes* gets reduced to -n- but is preserved in Careful Speech. so innernet, Toronno, cenner ...linguoboy wrote:Speaking of numbers, here's another good example: 20 [̍tʰwʌni]. But in careful speech I'll say something closer to [ˈtʰwɛnti]. (And this despite the fact that my speech is pin-pen merged.)
* i'm not sure what the rule is, it seems inconsistent. and yes i know some accents don't have this at all
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.
Re: Careful Speech
Isn't it just alveolar flapping? t/d become a flap, n/nt become a nasal flap in the same kinds of contexts (it does seem rather interesting that nd resist it, though, you'd expect the voiceless one to resist).Kereb wrote:* i'm not sure what the rule is, it seems inconsistent. and yes i know some accents don't have this at all
Re: Careful Speech
Side discussion of sportsball in Euroland moved to Ephemera.
Re: Careful Speech
Chinese speakers differentiate numbers as used in years and just regular numbers too. "1998" would be "one nine nine eight year" (一九九八年) or "one thousand nine hundred ninety eight" (一千九百九十八). It gets fun when there are zeros involved, though, as any zero between 2 non-zero digits is said, but any zero afterwards is not. Thus "1,050" is read as "one thousand zero five"( 一千零五) while "1,005" is "one thousand zero zero five" (一千零零五). As years, those would be "one zero five zero" and "one zero zero five" respectively (一零五零 and 一零零五).Terra wrote:(Also, numbers are deceptively complex in English; There's different ways to read the same number depending on whether it's an amount or a year. For example, how does one read 1998? If it's a year: "nineteen ninety-eight", if it's an amount: "one-thousand nine-hundred ninety-eight". For a Chinese speaker, it's even more complex, because in Chinese, numbers are separated every 4 digits instead of every 3 digits.)
English has the added complexity that in certain cases, numbers in the thousands can be stated as an amount of hundreds ("I have fifteen hundred dollars")
Re: Careful Speech
Heh, I got some labial assimilation and elision going on turning it into [tʰwʊ̃i]!linguoboy wrote:20 [̍tʰwʌni].