Coronal Dissimilation

[Zaarin]

Wasn't sure where to put such a small question, but something I've noticed in colloquial (American) English is a tendency to dissimilate coronals across syllable boundaries, giving pronunciations such as /ɛk.sɛtəɻə/ and /ɛk.spɻɛso/ for "etc." and "espresso." (I'm not sure if the latter assumes an underlying pronunciation of /ɛs.spɻɛso/ or if it's influenced by "express.") Do other languages or dialects do this as well?

[linguoboy]

Is this "coronal dissimilation" or is this just assimilating the scant number of English words with pretonic initial syllables in /ɛs/ or /ɛts/ to the sizable class of words beginning with ex-?

[Zaarin]

I admit I considered that with "espresso" but not "et cetera."

[Valdeut]

/tl/ > /kl/ is common in colloquial Swedish, at least when they are not obviously separated by a morpheme boundry. The most famous example is the word egentligen. Prescriptivists love to write to newspapers complaining about the /kl/-pronunciation. Another common example is kittla (’to tickle’) or kittlig (’ticklish’).

Isn't /tɬ/ often borrowed as /kl/ into English? The only example I can think of is the name of the Tlingit language and people, commonly pronounced with initial /kl/. But that may be a bad example as the native name is apparently Lingít /ɬɪŋkɪ́t/ (the language does contrast /ɬ/ and /tɬ/).

[Zaarin]

/tl/ > /kl/ is common in colloquial Swedish, at least when they are not obviously separated by a morpheme boundry. The most famous example is the word egentligen. Prescriptivists love to write to newspapers complaining about the /kl/-pronunciation. Another common example is kittla (’to tickle’) or kittlig (’ticklish’).

Isn't /tɬ/ often borrowed as /kl/ into English? The only example I can think of is the name of the Tlingit language and people, commonly pronounced with initial /kl/. But that may be a bad example as the native name is apparently Lingít /ɬɪŋkɪ́t/ (the language does contrast /ɬ/ and /tɬ/).

Yes, though in the case of Tlingit specifically the /kl/ pronunciation is the one favored by the Tlingit tribe themselves. I think there might be some other word-initial /tɬ/ > /kl/ borrowings, but the only other /tɬ/ words I can think of come from Nahuatl where they either become /tl̩/ or /l/--or /tV/ if borrowed via Spanish (tomato, coyote).

Somewhat related, Klallam apparently comes from a cluster of /xʷstɬ̕/.

[linguoboy]

Paɬaˑč comes in as potlatch, however.

I know there are some examples of medial /tl/ > /kl/ from colloquial English but I'm damned if I can think of any. The only example that comes to mind is ickle, which is babytalk for little (since coronals are acquired before velars and initial /l/ is one of the last sounds mastered by infants acquiring English).

[hwhatting]

A bit about the history of expresso.

[Valdeut]

Somewhat related, Klallam apparently comes from a cluster of /xʷstɬ̕/.

That is a nice cluster! What does /tɬ̕/ (or is it just /ɬ̕/?) represent here? Is it glottalized?

[Astraios]

/ɬ/ on its own often ends up as [kl] in English, cf. every Welsh toponym ever.

[sangi39]

/ɬ/ on its own often ends up as [kl] in English, cf. every Welsh toponym ever.

Or [fl], as happened with in Floyd.

[linguoboy]

/ɬ/ on its own often ends up as [kl] in English, cf. every Welsh toponym ever.

Really? Do people really pronounce the Llan- in all those names as [kʰlæn]?

[KathTheDragon]

In Llanfair PG, yes.

[Zaarin]

Somewhat related, Klallam apparently comes from a cluster of /xʷstɬ̕/.

That is a nice cluster! What does /tɬ̕/ (or is it just /ɬ̕/?) represent here? Is it glottalized?

Several indigenous languages of the Pacific Northwest have ejective lateral fricatives and affricates (not sure which is meant here). No idea how to pronounce them, but I'm not good with ejectives in the first place. Not sure if the /k/ in Klallam comes from /x/ or /tɬ̕/ in this case.

A bit about the history of expresso.

Interesting read. Thanks.

[Astraios]

Or [fl], as happened with in Floyd.

Or indeed [θl].

Really? Do people really pronounce the Llan- in all those names as [kʰlæn]?

[kʰlan] and [lan] are probably equally common, [θlan] less so. I used to spend a bit of time in Llangollen and I've heard both <ll>s come out as any one of the three, but mostly [(kʰ)langɔθlən].

[8Deer]

Here in BC, native words with coda /ɬ/ seem to be borrowed as /lθ/ or /lt/. Nuu-chah-nulth and Shalalth have /lθ/ (actually, the /l/ is Shalath is usually silent I think), while Esquimalt and Sechelt have /lt/.

[Bristel]

All the words in Lushootseed that became "-mish" in English. Snohomish, Swinomish, Skykomish, Stillaguamish...

Methinks it was a final /bʃ/ that turned into /mɪʃ/.

[Nortaneous]

isn't there a dialect of English somewhere in Britain that had kl > tl?

[Pabappa]

People actually say "Klingit" for Tlingit? If so that might be an example of of a local pornouncuaton being farther from spelling (due to hypercorrection) than the general English pronunication, as I;ve only ever heard /tlIŋIt/. But that is because I live where pretty much the only example of people ysing that word are people talkking abiout mountain climbing and/or tghe creation of the langauge of the Klingons.

[Zaarin]

People actually say "Klingit" for Tlingit? If so that might be an example of of a local pornouncuaton being farther from spelling (due to hypercorrection) than the general English pronunication, as I;ve only ever heard /tlIŋIt/. But that is because I live where pretty much the only example of people ysing that word are people talkking abiout mountain climbing and/or tghe creation of the langauge of the Klingons.

I can't say I've ever heard the word used in normal speech. All I know is that "/kliŋkɪt/ is the pronunciation preferred by the tribe themselves. *shrug* I think, if I'm not mistaken, it dates bake to earlier Russian and English transcriptions of the word (which is actually /ɬiŋkit/ anyway, a fricative not an affricate).