Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Thanks for this! It'll be an interesting read.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Yes.Ars Lande wrote: I wonder if anyone tried to derive a conlang from Gaulish with historical French sound changes.
(Failed/lost interest )
CONLANG Code: C:S/G v1.1 !lafh+>x cN:L:S:G a+ x:0 n4d:2d !B A--- E-- L--- N0 Id/s/v/c k- ia--@:+ p+ s+@ m-- o+ P--- S++ Neo-Khitanese
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Afaik, apart from a few obscure hydronyms, all the recorded pre-gaelic place and personal names from Scotland look to be British in the South, and something not very different from British in the North. All those aber's and penn's and so on. Plus some hints of Brittonic influence on Scots Gaelic.
It would be fun to reinvent Pictish but it would have to be at least 80% invention, hopefully informed deductive invention. Take a look though at the attempts on the web to 'restore' 'Cumbrian' i.e. the Late Brittonic/Proto Welsh of North Britain, or perhaps you shouldn't (!) Anyway they have more to go on than with Pictish as the language lasted longer and was closely related to a well known language, Welsh.
Then there's "West-Country Brittonic" which is a sort of mash-up of Nance's Unified Cornish and Lewis' Llawlyfr Llydaweg Canol, of which the less said the better. (Why did I even mention it ... aaagh!)
Actually Dewrad (was it you?) did pretty well with his Gaulish derived modern Channel Island language, which looked quite believable to me.
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Someone said that Gaulish and early Irish don't look 'Celtic'. Q. How would you characterise 'Celtic'?
Personally I don't have too much of a problem with seeing Gaulish as Celtic, as I can recognise many familiar nouns and adjectives at least. The problem I have is with Celtiberian, can anyone demonstrate why this is categorised as Celtic rather than just 'unknown IE'?
It would be fun to reinvent Pictish but it would have to be at least 80% invention, hopefully informed deductive invention. Take a look though at the attempts on the web to 'restore' 'Cumbrian' i.e. the Late Brittonic/Proto Welsh of North Britain, or perhaps you shouldn't (!) Anyway they have more to go on than with Pictish as the language lasted longer and was closely related to a well known language, Welsh.
Then there's "West-Country Brittonic" which is a sort of mash-up of Nance's Unified Cornish and Lewis' Llawlyfr Llydaweg Canol, of which the less said the better. (Why did I even mention it ... aaagh!)
Actually Dewrad (was it you?) did pretty well with his Gaulish derived modern Channel Island language, which looked quite believable to me.
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Someone said that Gaulish and early Irish don't look 'Celtic'. Q. How would you characterise 'Celtic'?
Personally I don't have too much of a problem with seeing Gaulish as Celtic, as I can recognise many familiar nouns and adjectives at least. The problem I have is with Celtiberian, can anyone demonstrate why this is categorised as Celtic rather than just 'unknown IE'?
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Yes, it was him.marconatrix wrote:Actually Dewrad (was it you?) did pretty well with his Gaulish derived modern Channel Island language, which looked quite believable to me.
I also have a modern Continental Celtic language project (for the League of Lost Languages), but it hasn't developed much so far. It is meant to be spoken in the Alps and doesn't have typically Insular Celtic features such as VSO word order or initial mutations. It is in part a response on Dewrad's Arvorec, which does have those features. (In my opinion, those features developed after the Celtic languages got established in the British Isles, under the influence of a pre-IE substratum.)
This is something that some people get messed up. The Insular Celtic languages (i.e., all of those still spoken, including Breton which immigrated from Britain around 500 AD) have certain highly characteristic typological features, namely VSO word order and initial mutations. These, however, are not what defines them as "Celtic". They are Celtic because they belong to a particular branch of Indo-European, to which Gaulish and Celtiberian also belong - despite lacking those "typically Celtic" features.marconatrix wrote:Someone said that Gaulish and early Irish don't look 'Celtic'. Q. How would you characterise 'Celtic'?
I cannot provide you with details, but:marconatrix wrote:Personally I don't have too much of a problem with seeing Gaulish as Celtic, as I can recognise many familiar nouns and adjectives at least. The problem I have is with Celtiberian, can anyone demonstrate why this is categorised as Celtic rather than just 'unknown IE'?
There are certain phonological developments that define the Celtic branch of IE, such as the loss of */p/ in most contexts, and Celtiberian has them. There are also some words and word-forms that are characteristic of Celtic, and are also found in Celtiberian.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
I've got one: what's the evidence for "φ > w /[+back]_[+nasal]"? I'm trying to derive a Brythonic cognate to Irish cuan (< PC *kaφno-) and having a helluva time finding parallels. (I thought perhaps tân < *taφno-, but the consensus seems to be that it derives from *teɸnet-.)Dewrad wrote:OK. Have a go at this and get back to me with any questions.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Matasović cites *sowno- "sleep" from PIE *supno- as evidence.linguoboy wrote:I've got one: what's the evidence for "φ > w /[+back]_[+nasal]"?Dewrad wrote:OK. Have a go at this and get back to me with any questions.
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Indeed, isn't this why Lusitanian is generally not classified as Celtic--because in some instances it has a <p> (assuming <p> does in fact equal /p/) where it ought not have a /p/ if it were Celtic?WeepingElf wrote:There are certain phonological developments that define the Celtic branch of IE, such as the loss of */p/ in most contexts, and Celtiberian has them. There are also some words and word-forms that are characteristic of Celtic, and are also found in Celtiberian.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
AFAIK, yes.Zaarin wrote:Indeed, isn't this why Lusitanian is generally not classified as Celtic--because in some instances it has a <p> (assuming <p> does in fact equal /p/) where it ought not have a /p/ if it were Celtic?WeepingElf wrote:There are certain phonological developments that define the Celtic branch of IE, such as the loss of */p/ in most contexts, and Celtiberian has them. There are also some words and word-forms that are characteristic of Celtic, and are also found in Celtiberian.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
I thought I would bump this back up again -- it looks interesting. I've usually got an idea for a Celtic conlang buzzing around in my head, with only limited success in getting it crystallised in a semi-coherent manner.
In fact, not just Gaulish, but any references to materials about Celtic diachronics would be interesting -- sound changes from Proto-Celtic, grammatical developments, that sort of thing.
In fact, not just Gaulish, but any references to materials about Celtic diachronics would be interesting -- sound changes from Proto-Celtic, grammatical developments, that sort of thing.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
I don't remember if Language in Pictland has already been linked to on the ZBB, but it doesn't do any harm. Relevant to the discussion.
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
What are the other phonological developments? (I ask because Proto-Basque has some Celtic-like features: no /p/, fortis-lenis contrast in /n l r/ like Old Irish...)WeepingElf wrote:There are certain phonological developments that define the Celtic branch of IE, such as the loss of */p/ in most contexts, and Celtiberian has them.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
According to the entry for Proto-Celtic in John Koch's "Celtic Culture: a Historical Encyclopedia", at least the following:Nortaneous wrote:What are the other phonological developments?
Consonants:
PIE palato-velar ḱ, ǵ and velar k, g Proto-Celtic velar k, g
PIE gw PC b
PIE's voiced aspirated plosives de-aspirated to b, d, g
PIE's p deleted in most environments. Word medially before a consonant, it became /X/. Some instances of (P)IE /p/ merged with /kw/ (presumably affected by later changes, such as the one which has been termed the P/Q split), as in *penkwe-to "fifth" > Old Irish cóiced (but Gaulish pinpetos)
IE /s/ + /nasal/ geminated nasal; e.g. *es-mi "I am" > Gaulish imi, OIr. am
IE's double dental consonants the so-called "tau gallicum", i.e. /ts/ or /st/, exact phonemic value unclear
PIE's laryngeals merged and were mostly lost. Around resonants, the associated vowel tended to become /a/.
PIE syllabic /m n/ am, an
PIE syllabic /l r/ /ri li/ before (P)IE's kw, t, k, ḱ, gw, g, ǵ, b and the aspirated plosives
Vowels:
IE ē ī
IE ō (also ōH, where H is a laryngeal) ū word finally, ā non-finally
Last edited by James0289 on Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Here's a little list of what I've found about Gaulish so far.
Available on the interwebz:
Available on the interwebz:
- Václav Blažek (2008): "Gaulish Language" (Graeco-Latina Brunensia, vol. 57, pp.37-65) - he's also written one on Celtiberian
- David Stifter (2008) "IV. Gaulish" (one of a series of notes to go along with a fieldcourse -- see the others here (scroll down))
- Bernard Mees (no date) "Wackernagel's law, pro-drop and verb-second syntax in Continental Celtic" (probably a handout for a lecture, it gives his take on ideas concerning mainly Gaulish syntax - it doesn't help that translations for the Gaulish sentences aren't given, though)
- Karin Stüber (2007) "Effects of Language Contact on Roman and Gaulish Personal Names" (in Hildegard Tristram (ed.) The Celtic languages in contact : Papers from the workshop within the framework of the XIII International Congress of Celtic Studies, Bonn, 26-27 July 2007)
- And of course the Wikipedia page and Dewrad's materials which have already been linked to earlier in the thread.
- Chapters 1-3 of The Celtic Languages, second edition (eds. Martin J. Ball & Nicole Müller), Routledge. (Namely, 1. Typological aspects of the Celtic languages, 2. The emergence of the Celtic languages, 3. Continental Celtic -- general overviews of Gaulish, its attestations and its placement within Celtic.)
- Joseph Eska (2008) Chapter 8, "Continental Celtic" (in The Ancient Languages of Europe, ed. Roger D. Woodard; Cambridge) -- includes descriptions of Gaulish, Hispano-Celtic (= Celtiberian) and Lepontic
- John Koch's (2006) Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia, vols 1-3, ABC-CLIO
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Thanks for the additional resources, James and hwhatting.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Oh nice. This thread might further develop into a good resource thread on Celtic in general.
My conlang Ercunic is Celtic (set in the Hercynian Forest and other parts of Germania), and it frequently reminds me of Irish more than Gaulish, but there are some reflexes that look Gaulish as well.
My conlang Ercunic is Celtic (set in the Hercynian Forest and other parts of Germania), and it frequently reminds me of Irish more than Gaulish, but there are some reflexes that look Gaulish as well.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
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Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Ercunic:Dewrad wrote:
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
Pāpos donyos est gnātos riyos etic samalos canti balcoteron etic iānoterā.
Pèif deugne est né ri e sémaux chent bélquière e jéntère.
Tous les êtres humains naissent libres et égaux en dignité et en droits.
Cách doin est ñath rí onct saval caint balcáché onct *rechtáché.
[kaːx donʲ est ɲaθ rʲiː onkt saval kantʲ balkaːxeː onkt rextaːxeː]
(*although I'm not sure what root "rights" comes from in your example, *yāno-?)
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Sweet. ^_^Bristel wrote:Ercunic:
Cách doin est ñath rí onct saval caint balcáché onct *rechtáché.
[kaːx donʲ est ɲaθ rʲiː onkt saval kantʲ balkaːxeː onkt rextaːxeː]
(*although I'm not sure what root "rights" comes from in your example, *yāno-?)
I think he has it coming from yāno- "true, just, correct" + -ter, a nominalising suffix from Welsh (John Morris Jones has it as a 'comparative suffix', peculiarly).
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Has anyone made a Gaulish altlang with Old Frankish as an influence? (With little to no Latin).
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Where can I find a good lexicon for Gaulish? I googled and got several results that looked very different from each other, and none of them had enough words for an altlang.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
Well, there's La Langue Gauloise by Georges Dottin, 1920. But it's in French, so if you don't know that, you'll have a bit of trouble using it.
Re: Looking for good resources on Gaulish...in English
If being in French is not a problem, there's the more up-to-date dictionary of Xavier Delamarre (from 2003).Matrix wrote:Well, there's La Langue Gauloise by Georges Dottin, 1920. But it's in French, so if you don't know that, you'll have a bit of trouble using it.