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[Thry]

Οι πρεφίξοι αππλίκασση να πολύ λη ένα βέρβο. Κώμε ότεις να δίκας αλκώς σι στο φόρο ληγγυίστικο;
Prefixes can apply to more than one word. How can you say things like this in a linguistics forum?

Είσαι τρανσφόβικο κη τέμτας να δείλας ένα θήμα τρανς απο τη λήγγη περ πρειυδίζο, όχι από τη ρελιγιών. Η ρελιγιών σει είσαι ως η ορίγε απο άμβους τη ιγγωρασσία και το οδείο οι σόλεν να γίαντε να αυτή ονδύχτη.
You're transphobic because you're attempting to erase a trans topics concept from language out of prejudice, not because of your religion. Your religion is merely the source of both the ignorance and the hate that commonly lead to this behavior.

[Thry]

The original word was transsexual, meaning "towards the opposite sex (from the one assigned sex as birth)", i.e., a trans woman was assigned 'boy' at birth and vice-versa. Transgender was an extension, and cis means people who are not like this, whose birth gender and adult social gender are the same, which happens to be most people (but not really all even, there is such a thing as non-binary people).

It is better to be more specific when using words, rather than use vague coinages that have little intrinsic meaning.

If only your alleged criticism was spot-on, man. Cisgender and cissexual are both precise terms, etymologically correct terms and have a well-established usage. There's no other term coming up for the concept, it's been here for decades. Educate yourself, at least on the linguistic part.

[Sumelic]

Então, tem 'nesse lado do 'gender'' e tem 'no outro lado do 'gender''. Aínda não significa nada.
So you have 'on this side of gender' versus 'on the other side of gender'. That is still quite generic and says nothing.

Quelles mots est-ce que tu penses que l'on doit utiliser pour être plus spécifique?

What words do you think should be used to be more specific?

[Thry]

Ah, merda, isto não é o thread de línguas construidas. Tanto faz já.
Oh lol not conlang thread. Whatever.

[sirdanilot]

You're transphobic because you're attempting to erase a trans topics concept from language out of prejudice,

Não quero apagar nada. Não tenho preconceito. Por que você imagina esses coisas?
I don't want to delete anything. I don't have prejudice. Why are you imagining these things?

not because of your religion. Your religion is merely the source of both the ignorance and the hate that commonly lead to this behavior.

'Não é porque você é negro. Esse é a fonte da sua ignorância e o odeio que causa esse comportamento.'
'not because you are black. You being black is merely the source of both the ignorance and the hate that commonly lead to this behavior.'

Você é que é discriminatório, par cosa do meu religião. Milhões de gente estão sendo discriminados par cosa da religião deles cada dia. Não é differente de discriminação da raça.
You are who are discrimination on the basis of my religion. Millions and millions of people are being discriminated on the basis of their religion, every single day. It is no different from racial discrimination.

[Thry]

Não falei das pessoas religiosas, és tu quem estás a imaginar coisas. A tua religião é a origem desses memes, isso é um facto. Não é a minha culpa que o Cristianismo seja transfóbico, mas é bem certo a tua se, como pessoa, o exemplificas. Neste caso com análise linguístico errado.
I haven't mentioned religious people, so you are imagining things. Your religion is the source of those memes, that's factual. It's not my fault Christianism is transphobic, but it is your fault if you as a person instantiate this. In this case with biased linguistic analysis.

Além disso a tua analogia é fora de lugar. Ser preto não é uma eleição (nem mau); crer que deus desinou os géneros de homens e mulheres e que a disfória de género não é real (e transicionar de longe a melhor actuação possível); é ignorância bestial da sociologia, biologia, psicologia, psiquiatria e ciência biomédica em geral.
Also your analogy is misplaced. Being black is not a choice (or in any way bad); thinking god designed genders of 'men' and 'women' and that gender dysphoria is not real (and that transitioning is vastly the best course of action), is blatant ignorance of sociology, biology, psychology, psychiatry, and biomedic science in general.

I don't know what your beliefs as a person are, so I don't speak about that; but I know what most fundamentalist Christians think of sex, gender and transitioning - hell, the Pope last month for all catholics (no, I'm not saying you're a Catholic) compared transsexuals to bombs!

[Sumelic]

You're transphobic because you're attempting to erase a trans topics concept from language out of prejudice,

Não quero apagar nada. Não tenho preconceito. Por que você imagina esses coisas?
I don't want to delete anything. I don't have prejudice. Why are you imagining these things?

Probablement, on imagine ça parce que tu rejettes catégoriquement l'usage d'un mot ordinaire qui fait partie du lexique des personnes transsexuelles. Est-qu'il y a une autre raison pour que tu n'aimes pas le mot? Je sais que beaucoup des imbéciles sur Tumblr l'utilisent comme insult, mais cela ne fait pas partie de la vraie signification du mot.

Probably, he thinks that because you categorically reject the use of an ordinary word that is part of the lexicon of transsexual people. Is there another reason why you don't like the word? I know that many stupid people on Tumblr use it as an insult, but that's not part of the real meaning of the word.

[Sumelic]

Não falei das pessoas religiosas, és tu quem estás a imaginar coisas. A tua religião é a origem desses memes, isso é um facto. Não é a minha culpa que o Cristianismo seja transfóbico, mas é bem certo a tua se, como pessoa, o exemplificas. Neste caso com análise linguístico errado.
I haven't mentioned religious people, so you are imagining things. Your religion is the source of those memes, that's factual. It's not my fault Christianism is transphobic, but it is your fault if you as a person instantiate this. In this case with biased linguistic analysis.

I don't know what your beliefs as a person are, so I don't speak about that; but I know what most fundamentalist Christians think of sex, gender and transitioning - hell, the Pope last month for all catholics (no, I'm not saying you're a Catholic) compared transsexuals to bombs!

(Minor correction, we say "Christianity" instead of "Christianism" in English)

La situation est plus compliquée en ce qui concerne la réligion. Même pour les Catholiques, le pape ne peut pas parler pour chacun d'entre eux; il y a des points de vue différents sur des questions sociales.

The situation is more complicated regarding religion. Even for Catholics, the Pope does not speak for each one of them, and there are diverse points of view on social issues.

[sirdanilot]

Also your analogy is misplaced. Being black is not a choice (or in any way bad);

(note that I use ser here, and not estar. being christian is not a temporary state, it is an identity)

Nem é ser christã.

Eu escolhei as roupas que eu tenho, eu posso escolher se eu ia pra caballereiro ou não. Más ser cristã não posso escolher. Não é possivel para mim dizer 'desde hoje, não serei más cristã'. A minha educação é cristã a vontade de Deus, eu segue ficar com Cristo a vontade de Deus. Ser cristã é tão importante da minha identidade, parece a identidade 'africano americano' dos negros na Estados Unidos. Não pode separar.

Na teologia calvinista, o arrependimento é uma ação de Deus. Ser cristã é graça de Deus, não da pra escolher. Na teologia calvinista, não existe 'cair forra da fé'. Más há fé que não é verdade.

Nor is being Christian.

What clothes I wear is a choice, and whether I go to the hairdresser, but me being Christian is not a choice. It is not possible for me to say from one day to the other 'I am now no longer a Christian'. I have been brought up a Christian by the grace of God, I have continued to be in Christ by the grace of God. Being Christian is so inherent that it is as much part of my identity as the 'african american' identity is to black people in America. It is inseparable.

In Calvinist theology, repenting to Christianity is an act of God. Being Christian is grace, not choice. Orthodox Calvinists are of the opinion that there is no 'falling from faith' (Dutch: afval des geloofs), but there is false faith.

[jal]

me being Christian is not a choice. It is not possible for me to say from one day to the other 'I am now no longer a Christian'.

Das ist Blödsinn und Quatsch. Selbstverständlich ist es eine Wahl, und jeder kann das sagen.
That's double nonsense. Of course it's a choice, and everyone can say that.

I have been brought up a Christian by the grace of God

Nein, deine Erziehung hast du eine Christen gemacht, und deswegen glaubst du das es ein Gott gibt, nicht umgekehrt. Aber ich weis noch von der Atheismus Thread, das es kein Sinn hat, mit dir darüber zu reden.
No, your upbringing has made you a christian, and therefore you believe in a god, not the other way around. But I recall from the atheim thread that it's no use arguing with you about that.

Orthodox Calvinists are of the opinion

Wenigstens erkennst du das es eine Meinung ist.
At least you acknowledge it's an opinion.


JAL

EDIT: Fixed typo.

[linguoboy]

Menschen, die ich kenne, die schwarz geboren sind und nicht mehr Schwarze sind: 0
Menschen, die ich kenne, die christlich erzogen sind und nicht mehr Christen sind: 100+
People That I Know Who Were Born Black And Are No Longer Black: 0
People That I Know Who Were Raised Christian And Are No Longer Christian: 100+

[jal]

People That I Know Who Were Born Black And Are No Longer Black: 0

Ich kenne einen: Michael Jackson! :)


JAL

[linguoboy]

People That I Know Who Were Born Black And Are No Longer Black: 0

Ich kenne einen: Michael Jackson!

Offensichtlicher Witz ist offensichtlich.
Obvious joke is obvious.

[jal]

Obvious joke is obvious.

Obwohl es ein Witz war, denke ich das er seine Afro-Amerikanischer Kultur verloren hätte, wie ein Atheist seine christliche Kultur verlieren kann.
Although it was a joke, I think that he lost his Afro-American culture the way an atheist can lose his christian culture.


JAL

[linguoboy]

Obvious joke is obvious.

Obwohl es ein Witz war, denke ich das er seine Afro-Amerikanischer Kultur verloren hat, wie ein Atheist seine christliche Kultur verlieren kann.

Und ich denke, dass das ziemlich anmaßend klingt. Er war ein Privatmensch, den keiner von uns gekannt hat. Ich bezweifle, dass wir sein Verhältnis zu seiner Kulturerbe wirklich beurteilen können.
And I think that sounds rather presumptuous. He was a private person, whom none of us knew. I doubt that we can really judge his relationship to his cultural heritage.

[Thry]

Nem dizia que as crenças sejam eleições. Só digo que a atitude de um com a transsexualidade é. Quando eu vejo pessoas homófobas a envergonhar algum casal gay, o problema não é tanto o livre arbítrio do que creem que esteja bem o mal; mas que se achem autorizados a espargir ódio, confundir a educação científica do assunto e causar violência por isso. Por Deus mesmo. É igual.
I'm not even saying beliefs are choices - I'm saying one's attitude towards transsexuality is. When I see a group of homophobes shaming some gay couple, the concern is not so much on the free will of what they believe is right or wrong; but that they believe themselves entitled to disseminate bigotry, obfuscate scientific education in the subject or execute violence out of it. By god even. Same goes.

[jal]

And I think that sounds rather presumptuous. He was a private person, whom none of us knew. I doubt that we can really judge his relationship to his cultural heritage.

Du hast recht, meine Meinung war nur basiert auf das, was wir sehen haben können auf Fernsehen usw.
You are right, my opinion was just based on what we were able to see on television etc.


JAL

[finlay]

Ah, merda, isto não é o thread de línguas construidas. Tanto faz já.
Oh lol not conlang thread. Whatever.

そうだよね、そう言うつもりだった。それはギリシャ語の言葉みたいではないんだ。
Yeah, I was gonna say... those didn't look like Greek words.

[Thry]

Βέρι ακύτε, Κ. Φίνλαϊε ;Δ

[sirdanilot]

That's double nonsense. Of course it's a choice, and everyone can say that.

Não é possivel para você ver esses coisa numa perspectiva cristã, tambem por que você não sabe muito da teologia 'calvinista'. Há tipos de cristianismo onde se pode escolher se for cristã ou não, más isso não existe em 'calvinismo'. Olha ali:
It is for you not possible to see these things from a Christian perspective, especially because you obviously know very little of (Calvinist) Christianity. There are indeed versions of Christianity where being Christian is deemed a choice, but this is not the Calvinist view. Read more here: http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

No, your upbringing has made you a christian, and therefore you believe in a god, not the other way around. But I recall from the atheim thread that it's no use arguing with you about that.

Tem gente que não tem educação cristã desde ser criança, más que tem o Arrependimento cristã. Forra da Estados Unidos e Europa, isso é a majoridade das cristãs evangelicas.
There are also people who have not been brought up a Christian, but who have repented to Christianity. In fact outside the Western world this is the majority of Evangelical Christians.

[sirdanilot]

Para explicar o teologia 'calvinista', eu botei o texto do site 'web' aqui, que explica que ser cristã não é simplemente uma coisa que se pode escolher a sua vontade.
In order to explain this point of Calvinist theology, I have quoted the passage in the link (which not everyone will look at of course) that explains my point that being a Christian is not a simple choice:
Quando Deus chama os Escolhidos para a Salvação, eles não podem resistir. Deus dá o Evangelho para tudo mundo; isso é o 'chamada externa'. Más para os Escolhidos, Deus chama uma 'chamada interno' que não se pode resistir. Esse Chamada vem do Espirito Santo, que trabalho na coração e a mente dos Escolhidos para darem eles o arrependimento e o recuperação, então eles venham a vontade deles para Deus. (whew that was a pain to translate)

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.

[linguoboy]

I don't know how it works in Dutch, but in English, you can't "repent to Christianity", you can only "repent to Christ" (or some other deity of your choice).

[Dewrad]

Para explicar o teologia 'calvinista', eu botei o texto do site 'web' aqui, que explica que ser cristã não é simplemente uma coisa que se pode escolher a sua vontade.
In order to explain this point of Calvinist theology, I have quoted the passage in the link (which not everyone will look at of course) that explains my point that being a Christian is not a simple choice:
Quando Deus chama os Escolhidos para a Salvação, eles não podem resistir. Deus dá o Evangelho para tudo mundo; isso é o 'chamada externa'. Más para os Escolhidos, Deus chama uma 'chamada interno' que não se pode resistir. Esse Chamada vem do Espirito Santo, que trabalho na coração e a mente dos Escolhidos para darem eles o arrependimento e o recuperação, então eles venham a vontade deles para Deus. (whew that was a pain to translate)

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.

(Mal)heureusement, ceux qui pratiquent le calvinisme peuvent dire ce qu'ils veulent, mais franchement de point de vue scientifique (et aussi le point de vue peut-être de la majorité de la population du monde), dans ce cas, ils ont tort. C'est bein démontrable qu'on ne peut pas changer sa race (bien que Michael Jackson ait fait de son mieux), et c'est aussi démontrable qu'on peut se convertir du christianisme à une autre réligion- me voici, par exemple. Sans référence à tes Saintes Écritures, tu n'arriveras jamais à nous convaincre de tes affirmations.

(Un)fortunately, those who follow Calvinism can say what they like, but frankly from a scientific point of view (and also perhaps the point of view of most of the world's population) in this case they are wrong. It's plainly demonstrable that one cannot change one's race (Michael Jackson aside), and it's also demonstrable that one can convert from Christianity to another religion- myself, for example. Without reference to your sacred texts, you won't convince us of your claims.

[jal]

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God.

Wirklich. Das meint das wenn jemand gerufen werd, es nicht möglich ist sich zu widersetzen (aber jetzt ist es freiwillig?). Und deshalb sind alle Leute die nicht in diese Got glauben, nicht gerufen. Und das bedeutet das nur die orthodox Kalvanistische Holländer gerufen sein, inbegriffen du. Aber nein, gar nicht arrogant, diese sirdanilot...

Really. That means that when someone's called, it's not possible to resist (though at the same time it's voluntary?). And therefore all people that do not believe in [this particular instantiation of] god aren't called. And that means [in turn], that only the orthodox Calvinistic Dutchmen are called, including you. But no, not arrogant at all, this sirdanilot...


JAL

[sirdanilot]

(Un)fortunately, those who follow Calvinism can say what they like, but frankly from a scientific point of view (and also perhaps the point of view of most of the world's population) in this case they are wrong. It's plainly demonstrable that one cannot change one's race (Michael Jackson aside), and it's also demonstrable that one can convert from Christianity to another religion- myself, for example. Without reference to your sacred texts, you won't convince us of your claims.

I may add a portuguese translation tomorrow as an exercise, but now I do not have the time to do so but wanted to post a quick reply.

You are completely misunderstanding my argument. My point here is not to prove to you that Calvinism (or Christianity for that matter) is right. My point here is to explain why it is not possible, from a Calvinist perspective, to simply 'stop being Christian'. No matter how much atheists and others might tell a calvinist to do so, or even force them by means of torture, this is impossible.
You can say 'Calvinism is Wrong' all you like, that is your full right (as much as it is my right to represent its view here). But that is besides the point. Also, saying that 'Calvinism is scientifically wrong' will also require you to do a lot of backing up.

I also never claimed that black people can chose to have a white skin colour. What I was talking about was a racial identity, not skin colour. This cannot be changed, and this also goes for 'being Christian' from a Calvinist point of view.

Really. (1)That means that when someone's called, it's not possible to resist (though at the same time it's voluntary?). (2)And therefore all people that do not believe in [this particular instantiation of] god aren't called. (3)And that means [in turn], that only the orthodox Calvinistic Dutchmen are called, including you.(4) But no, not arrogant at all, this sirdanilot...

1. Sim senhor. Tem muitos livros desse coisa. 2. Não, aqueles que não estão Escolhidos não tenham Fé em Deus, cara. 3. Não. Há Calvinismo no mundo enteiro, e calvinismo nem commençou na Holanda. Vai ler da história do Calvinismo, e depois você pode dizer coisas de calvinisme. Você não sabe nada de calvinismo. Que pena, por que calvinismo é muito importante na historia da Holanda, até hoje tem a influença da calvinismo neste país.
1. Yup. There are entire books about this subject by the way.
2. No, those who aren't called do not believe in [this particular instantiation of] God. It's reversed, boy.
3. No. Calvinism is a movement that is spread world-wide, it didn't even start in the Netherlands. Please go read up on the history of Calvinism before you spread your ignorant commentary on it, as you obviously have absolutely no idea what Calvinism is. Which is a shame, due to the enormous influence of Calvinism on the country you are living in which persists even up until the present day. It's appalling to see how even well-educated people like you have absolutely no inkling of what Calvinism is.
4. I am representing the view of Calvinism, not (just) my view.