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[clawgrip]

誰でもカルヴァン主義に帰依できるでしょう？ならば選択力があるという証拠だ。いくらなりたくても黒人にはなることが不可能だから。
Anyone can convert to Calvinism, can't they? If so, then that's proof it's a choice. Because no matter how much someone may want to become black, it's impossible.

[Sumelic]

誰でもカルヴァン主義に帰依できるでしょう？ならば選択力があるという証拠だ。いくらなりたくても黒人にはなることが不可能だから。
Anyone can convert to Calvinism, can't they? If so, then that's proof it's a choice.

Comme sirdanilot l'a dit auparavant, cela n'est pas correct du point de vue de la théologie calviniste.

À mon avis, il est insensé et improductive de contester les préceptes de la réligion des autres, particulièrement sur Internet.

As sirdanilot said earlier, that's not correct from the point of view of Calvinist theology.

In my opinion, it's foolish and unproductive to argue about the precepts of other people's religion, especially on the Internet.

[Imralu]

Wirklich. Das heißt, dass, wenn jemand gerufen wird, es nicht möglich ist, den Ruf zu widerstehen (aber das soll auch freiwillig sein?). Und deshalb werden alle Leute, die nicht an diesen Gott glauben, nicht gerufen. Und das bedeutet, dass nur die orthodox kalvinistischen Holländer gerufen werden, darunter auch du. Aber nein, gar nicht arrogant, dieser sirdanilot...

Probably not perfect either. The best I could do. No native speakers around yet. Das is an article, a demonstrative word and a relative pronoun, in each case restricted to the neuter nom/acc. Dass is the complementiser, a subordinating conjunction that has neither case nor gender but simply subordinates a clause. It doesn't help that "that" and "dat" take on several of these roles in English and Dutch, or that the German words are pronounced identically.

Das ist das Haus, das Jack gebaut hat.
Ich weiß, dass das das Haus ist, das Jack gebaut hat.

[sirdanilot]

誰でもカルヴァン主義に帰依できるでしょう？ならば選択力があるという証拠だ。いくらなりたくても黒人にはなることが不可能だから。
Anyone can convert to Calvinism, can't they? If so, then that's proof it's a choice. Because no matter how much someone may want to become black, it's impossible.

Ser Calvinisto =/= ser cristã na definição no calvinismo. Não da pra só concordar com algums crenças e pronoto você é cristã, é muito más profundo na teologia calvinista. Vai ler o site 'web' que ei botei aqui.
Being calvinist =/= being Christian in the definition of calvinism. Being Christian is not merely agreeing to a set of beliefs in your mind, it is much deeper than that in Calvinism. Go read the link I posted earlier.

[jal]

Probably not perfect either. The best I could do.

Danke!
Thanks!

2. No, those who aren't called do not believe in [this particular instantiation of] God. It's reversed, boy.

Ich denke, dass wir beide wissen, wer von uns ein Jungen ist.
I think we both know whose the boy here.

3. No. Calvinism is a movement that is spread world-wide, it didn't even start in the Netherlands.

Danke. Ich gebe zu, dass ich etwas gerufen habe, wovon ich zu wenig weiß. Ich soll versuchen das nicht wieder zu tun.
Thanks. I admit I've said something of which I don't know enough. I'll try not to do that again.


JAL

[clawgrip]

カルヴァン派の人は皆神様に示されたから自分自身だけではカルヴァン派には帰依できないということ？福音を説くと、神様の魂が伝うからそれで帰依できる？これは合っている？
So all Calvinists have been selected by God, so people cannot actually convert on their own? Through preaching, the spirit of God is conveyed to them and that's how they convert? Is this correct?

[hwhatting]

Finally caught up with this thread:

Du hast "christlich" vergessen. Weisse männliche christliche Heteros sind heute die benachteiligste Bevölkerungsgruppe*1) auf der Welt (]strike]nach[/strike] weißen männlichen christlichen Heteros in den USA zufolge*2)).
You forgot "Christian". Straight white male Christians are the most underprivileged population in the world today (according to straight white male Christians in the USA).

*1) The use of Population is much more limited in German than that of "Population" in English.
*2) nach in the meaning "according to" can only stand with a limited category of words. Your version read like "(right) behind white male etc."

I have been brought up a Christian by the grace of God

Nein, deine Erziehung hast dich zu einem Christen gemacht, und deswegen glaubst du, dass es einen Gott gibt, nicht umgekehrt. Aber ich weiß noch vom Atheismus-Thread, dass es keinen Sinn hat, mit dir darüber zu reden.
No, your upbringing has made you a christian, and therefore you believe in a god, not the other way around. But I recall from the atheim thread that it's no use arguing with you about that.

Wenigstens erkennst du an, dass es eine Meinung ist.
At least you acknowledge it's an opinion.

Obwohl es ein Witz war, denke ich, dass er seine Afro-Amerikanischer Kultur verloren hatte, wie ein Atheist seine christliche Kultur verlieren kann.
Although it was a joke, I think that he lost his Afro-American culture the way an atheist can lose his christian culture.

Und ich denke, dass das ziemlich anmaßend klingt. Er war ein Privatmensch, den keiner von uns gekannt hat*1). Ich bezweifle, dass wir sein Verhältnis zu seinem Kulturerbe wirklich beurteilen können.
And I think that sounds rather presumptuous. He was a private person, whom none of us knew*). I doubt that we can really judge his relationship to his cultural heritage.

*) That is grammatically correct, but doesn't really seem to work for me. I'd rather say Er hatte eine private Persönlichkeit, die niemand von uns kannte.

Du hast recht, meine Meinung war nur basiert auf dem, was wir sehen haben können [im Fernsehen usw. sehen haben können*1)
You are right, my opinion was just based on what we were able to see on television etc.

*) That's correct but sounds stilted. Better: was wir ... sehen konnten.

Wirklich. Das heißt, dass, wenn jemand gerufen wird, es nicht möglich ist, dem Ruf zu widerstehen (aber das soll auch freiwillig sein?). Und deshalb werden alle Leute, die nicht an diesen Gott glauben, nicht gerufen. Und das bedeutet, dass nur die orthodox kalvinistischen Holländer gerufen werden, darunter auch du. Aber nein, gar nicht arrogant, dieser sirdanilot...

Probably not perfect either. The best I could do.

You missed only on mistake (widerstehen takes the dative, not the accusative). And in this context. I'd use berufen instead of gerufen.

Ich denke, dass wir beide wissen, wer von uns ein Jungen ist.
I think we both know whose the boy here.
Danke. Ich gebe zu, dass ich etwas gesagt habe, wovon ich zu wenig weiß. Ich werde versuchen, das nicht wieder zu tun.
Thanks. I admit I've said something of which I don't know enough. I'll try not to do that again.

So all Calvinists have been selected by God, so people cannot actually convert on their own? Through preaching, the spirit of God is conveyed to them and that's how they convert? Is this correct?

Jeżeli poprawnie rozumiem kalwińskie doktryny o predestinacji, nic na świecie nie zdarza się bez pośrednictwa boga. W zasadzie wszystcy my znajdujemy się w teatrze marionetek, gdzie bóg decyduje, kto jak postępuje, a także wymierza nagrody i kary.
If I understand the Calvinist teachings on predestination correctly, nothing in the world happens without the agency of god. We're basically all in a puppet theatre, where god decides who behaves how and also metes out the rewards and punishments.

[jal]

If I understand the Calvinist teachings on predestination correctly, nothing in the world happens without the agency of god. We're basically all in a puppet theatre, where god decides who behaves how and also metes out the rewards and punishments.

Ha ha, Gott ist ein kleines Kind, der ewig mit seinem selbstgemachtem Puppen spielt :)
Haha, God is a child that plays with his homemade dolls for all eternity :)


JAL

[clawgrip]

神様が全てを完全に操ることを認めた上に世界に悪があることも認めたら、神様が優しいとはどうやって信じるだろう。
If, in addition to recognizing that God completely controls everything, one also recognizes that evil exists in the world, how can one believe in a God that is benevolent?

[sirdanilot]

If I understand the Calvinist teachings on predestination correctly, nothing in the world happens without the agency of god. We're basically all in a puppet theatre, where god decides who behaves how and also metes out the rewards and punishments.

Não é completamente isso, más você esta perto. Deus não diz 'agora você vai pecar'. Deus não pode fazer isso, por que Deus é Santo (Santo = sem nenhum pecado). Os pecados vem do Adão e Eva, quand os pecados entravam no mundo.
This is not completely true, although you are close. God does not say 'now you are going to sin'. God is not able to do this, because God is Holy (Holy = without any sin whatsoever). Sin comes from Adam and Eve, when sin entered the world.

カルヴァン派の人は皆神様に示されたから自分自身だけではカルヴァン派には帰依できないということ？福音を説くと、神様の魂が伝うからそれで帰依できる？これは合っている？
So all Calvinists have been selected by God, so people cannot actually convert on their own?

Deus selecionou todos os Seus Crianças. Arrependimento vem do Espirito Santo, e não a vontade dos homems.
God has selected all of His Children. Repentance comes from the Holy Spirit, and not from the will of man. So yes in this sense you are correct.

Through preaching, the spirit of God is conveyed to them and that's how they convert? Is this correct?

É verdade. Más o Espirito Santo pode transmitir em outras formas, não só na pelo pregar na igreja. Se pode transmitir quando ler a Bíblia Santa, quando conversar com outros gentes (cristãs), quando ficar na natureza (a creação do Deus), e nos momentos que são muito difícil na vida, etc. É Deus que faz isso, e não os homems. Pregar sem a vontade de Deus não vai transmitir o Espirito Santo.

Yes. But the Holy Spirit can be transmitted in other forms, and not only by preaches in the church. It can be conveyed when you read the Holy Bible, when you converse with other people (could be christians but not even necessarily), when staying in nature, in moments that are difficult in life, etc. It is God who does this, and it is not done through the act of humans. Even preaching without the will of God will not convey the Holy Spirit.

[Thry]

But the Holy Spirit can be transmitted in other forms

Pour example, le sperme d'une colombe. Il faut qu'on aime le christianisme xD
For instance, a dove's semen. Gotta love Christianity xD.

[sirdanilot]

Blasfêmia !
Blasphemy !

[Thry]

Η βλασφημία είναι μια λαγνεία μει. Μπουμ, μεταβλασφημία.
Blasphemy is a kink of mine. Boom, metablasphemy.

[Imralu]

Os pecados vem do Adão e Eva, quand os pecados entravam no mundo.
Sin comes from Adam and Eve, when sin entered the world.

Und jetzt leiden wir alle wegen eines Gottes, der vererbbare Schuld einfach zulässt. Schönes System!

And so now we're all suffering because of a god that simply allows hereditary blame. Nice system!

Blasfêmia !
Blasphemy !

Ich weiß nicht, ob du dich wirklich beleidigt fühlst, oder ob du das mit Humor gesagt hast, aber ich finde den Begriff Gotteslästerung / Blasphemie einfach falsch. Man darf für seine Religion Klinken putzen oder Passanten als Sünder beschimpfen, Flyer verbreiten und sich in die Politik einmischen und versuchen, Nichtgleichgesinnten Steine in den Weg zu legen, doch sobald jemand auch nur sagt »Das stimmt nicht!« oder »Das finde ich einfach bescheuert,« habe er sich beleidigend verhalten. Ich habe einmal einer Zeugin Jehovas schlicht gesagt »Es gibt doch keinen Gott!« und ihr ging sofort der Mund auf und sie tat so schockiert, als hätte sie nicht atmen können. Ich wollte doch nur in einen Supermarkt und sie hat angefangen. Sag mir nicht, dass es so ist, wenn du nicht hören willst, dass es anders ist. Ich habe ja nichts Beleidigendes gegen einen Menschen gesagt - ich habe sie nicht diskriminiert, ich war nicht gemein, ich habe nur gezeigt, dass ich anderer Meinung bin. Huch! BLASPHEMIE!

I don't know if you really feel offended or if you said that light-heartedly but I find the concept of blasphemy simply wrong. You can go from door to door for your religion or berate passers-by, calling them sinners, hand out flyers and stick your neck into politics and try to put obstacles in the way of non-like-minded people, but as soon as someone even says "That's not true!" or "I think that's just dumb," they're supposed to have behaved offensively. I once told a Jehovah's Witness "But there's no such thing as God!" and her mouth dropped open and she acted so shocked, as if she couldn't breathe. I was just going into a supermarket and she started it. Don't tell me it's one way if you not prepared to hear that it's another way. It's not as if I said anything offensive against a person - I didn't discriminate against her, I wasn't mean, I just showed that I disagree. Gasp! BLASPHEMY!

Niemand sollte wegen ihrer Glauben diskriminiert werden dürfen, aber die Glauben selbst muss man natürlich kritisieren dürfen, sobald sie in die Öffentlichkeit vorgestoßen werden, und zwar insbesondere, wenn sie der ganzen Gemeinschaft aufgezwungen werden sollten.

No one should be allowed to be discriminated against because of their beliefs but the beliefs themselves must be allowed to be criticised as soon as they are thrust out into the public sphere and in particular when they are about to be forced onto the community as a whole.

[Sevly]

L'est truc c'est que, avec le calvinisme, personne ne peut vraiment savoir s'ils sont "chrétien" avant qu'ils ne soit mort. En effet, il y a un bonne comparaison entre l'élection inconditionnelle des cieux et les élections habituelles d'ici la terre. On essaie de deviner les gagnants, mais dire que tu es élu chrétien au calvinisme, c'est comme dire que tu es élu président avant qu'il ne soit en fait le cas – peut-être les sondages te diront ce qui arrive si on vote aujourd'hui, mais s'il y reste toujours un mois de campagnes puis on ne peut vraiment pas en être sûr. De la même façon, le calviniste ne sait que ses croyances de maintenant; peut-être il espère qu'il est des élus, mais c'est toujours possible que demain il arrive à penser que sa foi était fausse, et après c'est encore possible que c'est là qu'il a tort et que tout sera toujours rose quand il revient au bercail.

The thing is, with Calvinism, no one can really know if they're "Christian" until they die. Indeed, there's a good comparison between the unconditional election of the heavens and regular elections here on earth. We can try to guess at who will be elected, but saying the you've been elected a Calvinist Christian is like saying that you've been elected President before it actually happens - the polls may tell you what would happen if people were voting today, but if there's still a month left in the campaign then, well, you can't really be sure. In the same way, the Calvinist only knows what they believe right now; they might hope to be one of the elect, but it's still possible that tomorrow they'll start thinking that their faith was false, and even then it might be there that they have it wrong and everything will be sunshine and rainbows when they rejoin the fold.

Évidemment que c'est vrai qu'il y a une différence importante: selon le calvinisme, Dieu a déjà fait sa décision, pendant que les électeurs sont toujours libres à changer d'avis. Mais en tant que Dieu seul le sait quoi que ce soit, c'est à nous autres à rester assis et se tourner les pouces (et Suivre la Parole et Aimer Ton Prochain ouais ouais etc etc). Finalement, c'est vrai qu'on ne peut pas changer que Dieu t'as élu sans conditions ou non, mais à quoi ça importe? Tu sais rien de sa décision, pas vraiment; tu ne sais que c'est que tu en penses et fais dans ce moment-là. C'est ça la définition pratique d'être chrétien et sans aucun doute c'est un choix.

Of course it's true that there's an important difference in that, in Calvinism, God has already made his decision, whereas voters are of course free to change their minds. Still, since God only knows what that decision actually is, the rest of us can only sit here and twiddle our thumbs (and Follow His Word and Love Your Neighbour yeah yeah etc etc). In the end, it's true that you can't change whether or not God has unconditionally elected you, but how does that even matter? You don't know anything about his decision, not really; you only know what you're thinking and doing about it right now. That's the practical definition of being a Christian and is most definitely a choice.

[Thry]

Je suis sûr qu'il blagueait.
I'm sure he was joking.

[Imralu]

Ich auch, aber ich werde oft etwas tiradig und ich lass es dann oft aus mir heraus
Me too, but I often get kind of ranty and then often let it out of me.

[Pogostick Man]

Wakyo·té i·kélhe. Yah teʔwakyo·té okháleʔ yah teʔwakhwístayʌ.

I want to get a job. I'm not working and I have no money.

[Dewrad]

J'en ai un. En revanche, je n'ai pas d'argent non plus.
I've got one. On the other hand, I don't have any money either.

[Pogostick Man]

J'en ai un. En revanche, je n'ai pas d'argent non plus.
I've got one. On the other hand, I don't have any money either.

Satunháhele kʌ?

Are you happy?

[sirdanilot]

The thing is, with Calvinism, no one can really know if they're "Christian" until they die.

Isso não é verdade para cada forma de Calvinismo. Tem formas de calvinismo que tem uma coisa que eu não posso traduzir, hollandês: 'bevinding'. É como experiência más não completamente.'Bevinding' significa 'a experiência das coisas que Deus fáz a sua alma'.

Quando você recebeu o Espirito Santo, você vai ter esse 'bevinding' da Espirito Santo, e você pode saber e crer com certeza que você é uma criança de Deus. Até este momento, você não pode ter certeza.

This is not true for all forms of Calvinism. There are forms of calvinism which have something I cannot translate: dutch 'bevinding' (perhaps erfühlung or something in german?). It is a bit like 'experience' but not completely. It signifies the experience os the thigns that the Lord has done upon your soul.
If you have received the Holy Spirit), then and only then you will have this 'bevinding' of the Holy Spirit and you shall know and believe with a certainty that you are a child of God. Until thta moment you cannot have any certainty.

This is probably not present in all forms of Calvinism, though. 'Bevinding' is, in fact, a specifically Dutch thing, but other forms of calvinism elsewhere might have different terms for a similar concept.

Still, since God only knows what that decision actually is, the rest of us can only sit here and twiddle our thumbs (and Follow His Word and Love Your Neighbour yeah yeah etc etc). In the end, it's true that you can't change whether or not God has unconditionally elected you, but how does that even matter? You don't know anything about his decision, not really; you only know what you're thinking and doing about it right now. That's the practical definition of being a Christian and is most definitely a choice.

[/quote]
+1

[Pogostick Man]

Yah teɁwaknáskwayʌ tekanáskwake é·lhal. Waknáskwayʌ skanáskwat é·lhal.

I don't have two dogs. I have one dog.

[ol bofosh]

Tengo tres perros ahora mismo en casa, pero uno de ellos no es mío, es de mi cuñada.
I have three dogs at home right now, but one of them isn't mine, he's my sister-in-law's.

[Pogostick Man]

Lati·ká·se kʌ o·nʌ́ste?

Do they like corn? (I don't know all that much Oneida; if you know about it feel free to correct me)

[Dewrad]

J'en ai un. En revanche, je n'ai pas d'argent non plus.
I've got one. On the other hand, I don't have any money either.

Satunháhele kʌ?

Are you happy?

Alors, laisse-moi réflechir. Je dois emménager avec mon père puisque je ne peux pas payer le loyer de mon appartement. Je ne suis pas sûr si j'aurai un emploi pour la rentrée, et je suis convaincu que mon mari veut me laisser. Donc, je pense que non.
Let me think. I have to move back in with my dad because I can't afford the rent on my flat. I'm not sure if I'll have a job after the summer holidays and I'm convinced that my husband wants to leave me. So no, I don't think so.