Personal names between languages

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

My name is Ugo Lachapelle.
The problem is that it is pronounced /ygolaʃapɛl/. Now, live for the first six years of your life in a place where pronouncing a rounded front vowel is not mainstream, and then add the fact most people will want to reduce quite a few vowels to schwa in that string. Instead of having my name butchered by every other friend, I have always changed my name. /'jugəw laʃə'pɛl/ has been my English name ever since.

(Esperanto speakers usually use an Esperantized name. Some are simply phonations, but others can be creative. Mine is Juhelo, based on my initials UJL; Yiuel, my nickname, is also based on the same process, but with only UL. Raumbesrairc I only use here, it means Fartraveler, and is Xurnese.)

In Japan, my legal name is Lachapelle Ugo Jose; most people believe Jose to be my main first name. (It isn't, it's a distinguishing name. It's not a middle name either.) However, Japanese phonology being what it is, I used a phonologicalized version of my name : /rasjaperu juugo hyosee/. Still, the "pe" is usually misheard as /be/, and I still need to repeat my names quite a few times so I found it expedient to simply translate my name. I was specifically asked to do so at University eight years ago in Japan, so I still use that name, 小寺勇悟. Over the phone, or when lining up somewhere, I'll use the reading /kodera juugo/. It would have been my chosen name if I had taken Japanese citizenship, though the reading of the first part I would have kept /rasyaperu/. Kodera, in turn, became my nickname in the gaming circles of Hokuriku.

All in all, most people have been quite happy that I adapted my name to each language, even with the drastic Kodera. In terms of self-identification, both French /ygo/ and English /jugəw/ I consider fully appropriate, and I accept localized adaptations. (I have met one Italian in my life, and I let her use the Italian pronunciation of my name /ugo/, which I don't let either French or English speakers do. Note that my name's orthography is the Italian variant of German Hugo.)

I am so comfortable in translating my own name that I came up with a character in one of my stories whose name is only fixed by meaning ("Victorious"), and therefore his name changes drastically from language to language. (On a personal level, he has his own preference.)

[ol bofosh]

When it comes to logic and elegance, nothing can beat the English spelling.

Yeah, I've eaten my bread, and thought it through, although I'm tough I cough!


JAL

The curse of my surname. No one gets it right... "Mr. Broo, Brow, Broa..." "Bruff!"

I don't mind if in Spain they call me /braf/ or /broug/, or the French, /brug/. It's confusing enough for the English.

Hey, I opened a thread without knowing it!

At least my first name is quite easy across languages: Adam. Although some Spaniards think I introduce myself as Alan (typical guiri name?), and at least one person I know does call me Alan, which most times I don't notice anyway. If memory serves, that happened in England too.

[jal]

The point is that a name is given to you.

And again, your limited appreciation of other cultures than your own sheltered environment shines through with a blinding light.

Making up your own name is incredibly pretentious. (...) I actually do know some people who decided to be cocky and say 'from now on please call me so-and-so (with the new name being super pretentious, consisting of two normal names). I refuse to do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. Who do you think you are to a) decide your own name b) expect of others to go through the effort to remember this new name rather than the old name and c) choose a new name which is harder to pronounce to boot?

The fact that you can't conceive of a single reason why someone would have a legitimed reason to change their name, and going on a rant, shows again your extermely limited mental capacity on these matters. Sometimes I'm really convinced that you're just a gigantic troll. That, or someone with such a giant "bord voor z'n kop" that the difference between that and being a troll is moot.

The only place where it's not cocky to make up your name is on the internet, basically.

Right. Since you're the authority on these matters.

Ok, I'll give you a few, imho sound, reasons (in random order):
1) You just don't like the way your name sounds.
2) You have the same name as someone in your close vicinity, and are tired of the mix-ups.
3) You have the same name as someone whose notorious for some reason, or someone you reallly dislike.
4) You have a name that's a swear word in a languages of an area you're frequenting (point in case: I know someone called Fieke ([fik@]) who changed her name after moving to Germany).
5) You have a name that's mispronounced by about everyone, and want a name that isn't.
6) You have PTSS associated with your name (say, because your rapist used it while raping you).
7) Your name is associated with a certain period of time, or a certain movement, or a certain culture, that you're not feeling comfortable with.
8) Your name gives people the giggles, and you're tired of being the centre of jokes.
9) You are trans-gender, and want a name that befits your perceived gender, rather than your birth-assigned gender.
10) You have broken up with your parents, and don't want to use the name they assigned to you.

Well, I could go on like this for a while, but I think I made my point.


JAL

[din]

The most important thing about a name is that people can refer to you easily, so I don't have issues with people using different variations of my name.

My name (Niels) is not exactly hard to pronounce for Anglophones, but I also respond to Neil. For whatever reason, my father-in-law pronounced my name 'nails' for the longest time.

Most people from east Asia call me Neil (or rather [nil]) anyway, because they have trouble pronouncing the final -ls cluster.

[gestaltist]

At least my first name is quite easy across languages: Adam. Although some Spaniards think I introduce myself as Alan (typical guiri name?), and at least one person I know does call me Alan, which most times I don't notice anyway.

In Spanish, it might be due to the different stress: Ádam might not be readily recognized as Adán, so they fall back on the other phonetically closest name.

[sirdanilot]

The point is that a name is given to you.

And again, your limited appreciation of other cultures than your own sheltered environment shines through with a blinding light.

The fact that you can't conceive of a single reason why someone would have a legitimed reason to change their name, and going on a rant, shows again your extermely limited mental capacity on these matters.

Now now mind your blood pressure

Ok, I'll give you a few, imho sound, reasons (in random order):
1) You just don't like the way your name sounds.
2) You have the same name as someone in your close vicinity, and are tired of the mix-ups.
3) You have the same name as someone whose notorious for some reason, or someone you reallly dislike.
4) You have a name that's a swear word in a languages of an area you're frequenting (point in case: I know someone called Fieke ([fik@]) who changed her name after moving to Germany).
5) You have a name that's mispronounced by about everyone, and want a name that isn't.
6) You have PTSS associated with your name (say, because your rapist used it while raping you).
7) Your name is associated with a certain period of time, or a certain movement, or a certain culture, that you're not feeling comfortable with.
Your name gives people the giggles, and you're tired of being the centre of jokes.
9) You are trans-gender, and want a name that befits your perceived gender, rather than your birth-assigned gender.
10) You have broken up with your parents, and don't want to use the name they assigned to you.

Most of these reasons are, in fact, pretentious. Who do you think you are to change your own name? This goes for numbers 1, 2, 5, 7, 10. Who do you think you are to think you deserve a unique name so nobody mixes you (oh almighty important one) up (number 2). Who do you think you are to spit your parents in the face by changing the name they gave you (10). Need I go on.

All of the others are whining reasons. Booooohooo. Oh boo hoo people mispronounce your name. Well guess what I have a non-Dutch name and everyone mispronounces it. I am not going to change my name either, because it was given to me by my parents. And making up your own nickname is the most pretentious thing there is; nicknames are a sign of acceptance given to you by your friends.

For example, I met someone who said 'Hi, I'm Wolf'. I was like 'is that your true name?'. He said nothing. So then I already know that this person things 'hey look at me being cool, calling myself Wolf' and I am already no longer interested in such pretentiousness.

[GreenBowTie]

"who do you think you are to change your name"? it's my fucking name, who do you think you are to tell me what i can do with it

[sirdanilot]

Of course there are sometimes names which you are even allowed to change by law. What if your name is Jihad (a common name for muslims in the Netherlands)? Then you have significantly less odds to get a job. Some people have changed their names when applying for a job, to avoid discrimination. Writing the exact same application letter will give great results for a Susan but may give bad results for someone with a Turkish given name.

In this case it is so sad that this kind of discrimination happens, that you need to change your name on the application letter in order to even stand a chance, but sometimes it's the only option.

What I am referring at, for all intents and purposes, is people who change their first name just because they are whiney or pretentious. Which goes most of the time.

[GreenBowTie]

are you the arbiter of what is pretentious now? i don't remember voting for you

[sirdanilot]

"who do you think you are to change your name"? it's my fucking name, who do you think you are to tell me what i can do with it

People can have opinions about things, you know. I can have an opinion on you changing your name, and you can have an opinion on the clothes I am wearing. Having an opinion =/= physically forcing people to do something. If you hate my yellow shirt you can say it all you want but you cannot change it into a red shirt. So if you change your name I have all the right to find it pretentious, even if I cannot physically change it.

What I also have the right to, is to continue using the old name if I know it, even though you felt so pretentious as to change it. But honestly I know only few people who have actually changed their name. I know maybe three or so off the top of my head. One is actually transgender, the other two are pretentious people. One of them decided to use two normal names as his first name (P-A if his name was first just P, I don't want to write it out here). So what we do is we refer to him with a mocking nickname which mixes up the two names.

[masako]

So what we do is we refer to him with a mocking nickname which mixes up the two names.

This is a giant clue to us that you are the asshole we all believe you to be.

[GreenBowTie]

"who do you think you are to change your name"? it's my fucking name, who do you think you are to tell me what i can do with it

People can have opinions about things, you know. I can have an opinion on you changing your name, and you can have an opinion on the clothes I am wearing. Having an opinion =/= physically forcing people to do something. If you hate my yellow shirt you can say it all you want but you cannot change it into a red shirt. So if you change your name I have all the right to find it pretentious, even if I cannot physically change it.

What I also have the right to, is to continue using the old name if I know it, even though you felt so pretentious as to change it. But honestly I know only few people who have actually changed their name. I know maybe three or so off the top of my head. One is actually transgender, the other two are pretentious people. One of them decided to use two normal names as his first name (P-A if his name was first just P, I don't want to write it out here). So what we do is we refer to him with a mocking nickname which mixes up the two names.

it's actually extremely rude to refer to someone by a name they don't want to be called by, it's a basic point of politeness. you sound like an incredibly judgemental prick and a bully tbh

[GreenBowTie]

if someone doesn't like their name they have the right to go by a different one. you don't have the right to decide for yourself that their reasons for changing their name don't meet your personal criteria for validity, and call them by a name they've explicitly told you they don't want to be called by. jesus christ dude

[jal]

All of the others are whining reasons. Booooohooo.

You really are an insensitive dickhead, aren't you? I mean, despite what you may think, I don't quickly dislike people. But you make it *sooo* easy. Which is why, again, I think you're just trolling. Job well done sir!


JAL

[sirdanilot]

Okay so who is being impolite here? The only people who I see behaving impolitely in this thread are you guys, throwing around swear words and all.

I think you guys miss the point; if someone is so pretentious as to change their own name, they do not deserve to be called by their new name. You have lost all forms of social good will and credit, if you do something which is so utterly pretentious (and you don't have extreme reasons for it). So yes, I realize that using a mocking nickname or using the old name is impolite, but people who are so pretentious simply are no longer deserving of politeness.

And another disclaimer: I am operating in the Dutch cultural paradigma here. A very important Dutch value is: doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg (act normally, that's already weird enough). Of course if you are in an Amerindian society where everyone keeps changing their names because of taboo reasons or something, it makes no sense for me to judge them using my own cultural values. But all the people I was talking about are in Holland and are culturally Dutch. And thus they have to adhere to Dutch cultural values, i.e. not being pretentious. And if they fail to do that then they are no longer deserving of polieness.

[jal]

but people who are so pretentious simply are no longer deserving of politeness. (...) A very important Dutch value is: doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg (act normally, that's already weird enough). (...) And thus they have to adhere to Dutch cultural values, i.e. not being pretentious. And if they fail to do that then they are no longer deserving of polieness.

I think you confuse your own rediculous narrow minded ideas with "Dutch cultural values" at large.


JAL

[sirdanilot]

You have never heard of the phrase 'doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg'?

[finlay]

Actually I should throw in my own experience here: I often have Japanese people balking at the -nl- in my name, even though the name is pretty simple for them to pronounce if they just ignore the L and pronounce it like their hybrid R/L phoneme. I usually transcribe it as フィンレイ (finrei) even though my actual pronunciation is between that and フィンリー (finrii) (I half do that because the katakana look nicer). Outside of work I usually just tell them to call me Fin, and most of the time people call me Fin-chan, because, you know, Japanese. At work I very much have the attitude that my students should suck it up and learn my proper name.

Aside from that, I have constructed two possible kanji names. The first is 茶鱒 富韻礼, a straight-up transliteration of my name using kanji as chamasu fuinrei, although i usually write it like charumazu finrei in katakana (chamasu is actually closer to the "real" pronunciation but I'm kind of entrenched in writing it charumazu now). The other is 房室 金士, which is based on the meaning and is the "alternative name" on my facebook, but it's pronounced boushitsu kinshi, and "kinshi" usually means forbidden, so i think i have to think of a better one.

Oh yeah and I have the same problem as Yiuel in that my middle name is also on my ID, and because Japanese people don't have middle names, they don't realise that when the last name is moved to the front of the name, the middle name stays where it is, so my first name is in the middle of the name, but that doesn't make it the middle name... Anyway, Japanese people who have access to my ID have sometimes called out for Robert, and I'm like "no" because that's my dad's name.

Ah and one more thing, I made a Chinese name a while ago as well, Fenlei or 芬雷, just because my name is actually relatively easy to transcribe into Chinese (using the character Fen as in Finland). I don't know many Chinese people, but I met a girl last year and told her about that name, and I'm pretty sure she's remembered it because she pronounced it that way when I saw her last (or anyway, she pronounced it with a schwa instead of i so I guess they don't have the syllable Fin in Chinese).

Also my experience of Chinese people in Japan is that they transcribe their Chinese name to Japanese and use that name with English people too because while we have trouble pronouncing Chinese, we don't have much trouble pronouncing Japanese.

[Grunnen]

but people who are so pretentious simply are no longer deserving of politeness. (...) A very important Dutch value is: doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg (act normally, that's already weird enough). (...) And thus they have to adhere to Dutch cultural values, i.e. not being pretentious. And if they fail to do that then they are no longer deserving of polieness.

I think you confuse your own rediculous narrow minded ideas with "Dutch cultural values" at large.


JAL

Indeed, I can only guess where his attutude comes from, but it's not something I recognise from people around me. I for instance do tend to use different versions of my name depending on the context. And I'm Dutch as well. I don't see why I would make people pronounce my name the Dutch way when we're not speaking Dutch. They're welcome to do so if they like, but apart from that, why would you do that?

[jal]

You have never heard of the phrase 'doe normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg'?

Of course I do, but that doesn't mean that that is a core value of being Dutch these days. And it certainly doesn't mean you get to scold people for wanting to change their name, just because there is a Dutch expression, no matter how much you agree with that expression.


JAL

[linguoboy]

Remember, people: Strong language is fine, personal abuse is not. Disagree with sirdanilot all you want, but enough with the epithets.

I think you guys miss the point; if someone is so pretentious as to change their own name, they do not deserve to be called by their new name. You have lost all forms of social good will and credit, if you do something which is so utterly pretentious (and you don't have extreme reasons for it). So yes, I realize that using a mocking nickname or using the old name is impolite, but people who are so pretentious simply are no longer deserving of politeness.

All I can say is that, if that's really how Dutch etiquette works, than it is fundamentally different from the Anglo-American system, one of the basic principles of which is that you do not meet rudeness with rudeness. Moreover, I don't get the equivalence of "pretentiousness" with rudeness here anyway. Laying unwarranted claims to distinction is certainly gauche, but rude--let alone rude enough to justify dispensing with all politeness in return? That seems excessive by almost any measure.

[linguoboy]

Who do you think you are to spit your parents in the face by changing the name they gave you (10).

I dunno, your own person? Who are you to pass judgement on someone's relationship with their parents?

There's a child in New Jersey named "Adolf Hitler Campbell". But far be it from him to spit in the face of his neo-Nazi parents by daring to change that name when he's older, right?

[jal]

That seems excessive by almost any measure.

It might explain sir d.'s behaviour though...


JAL

[sirdanilot]

Of course I do, but that doesn't mean that that is a core value of being Dutch these days.

So what *is* a core value of being Dutch, then?
Acting normally and not making yourself look more important than you are is certainly important. Or maybe you are pretentious yourself and are therefore so vehemently defending that 'doe maar normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg' is not Dutch?

And it certainly doesn't mean you get to scold people for wanting to change their name, just because there is a Dutch expression, no matter how much you agree with that expression.

I am not scolding anyone, go look who used swear words in the thread, certainly not me.

All I can say is that, if that's really how Dutch etiquette works, than it is fundamentally different from the Anglo-American system, one of the basic principles of which is that you do not meet rudeness with rudeness.

Yes it is very different. Als je een grote bek hebt kan je hem terug verwachten (if you have a big mouth you can expect it back).
For example I was at a concert in a church some time ago, and there was a grumpy old lady who was probably having some mental issues. She was shouting at everyone not to sit next to her and to shut up, and she even hit some people with the concert programme leaflet (!!!). So when she decided to hit me (I was touching my face or something and she didn't like it) I simply said rotwijf (rotten woman, stupid woman). That's perfectly acceptable.
Or if you are on the bike and someone drives on the left side of the road so you almost have a collision, it is also okay to scold them.

Of course not everyone will agree with me on that one, but in general if people behave negatively I am not going to 'keep up appearances'.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

sirdanilot : If changing a name is basically pretentious until proven otherwise, then I must say I totally disagree.

My name has been years of endless annoyance. So much that it has turned into an inside joke, that I must say "Ugo without an H" over the phone. Really, I am happy here in Japan, where I was actually able to choose my own name. I don't think I'd let of Ugo or José (or any of my other names, I was given 4, and my fifth is my family name), but I definitely would be quite interested in having my name changed to something else, simplifying some of the issue I've had with my unusual name.

Also, I find your argument relying on "given name" circular and really limited in scope. The French equivalent is "prénom", a pre-name, something that comes before the name, the name implied to be the family name, which is not a personal name at all. Had I to rely on such a linguistic argument, I'd have to say that my real name is Lachapelle, which I share with a sizable proportion of people in Canada.

And, most of all, I would be enraged by any behavior that would disparage a name, whether it be given to you or self-given. If changing one's own name is (mostly) pretentious, I would find it highly annoying and extremely rude, even I am not personally concerned, if people around me started to disparage other people's names. You say a given name was given, well, to me, all names are worthy of respect, no matter what I may think about how they were attributed.

(The very fact I give utmost respect to all names, no matter what, has made my ex-girlfriend extremely comfortable with my saying of her own first given name, before she had it legally changed because of general discrimination in life. I still used her legal name, but I would be able to use her first one without issue.)