Personal names between languages

[linguoboy]

How has it only occurred to me now that the person excoriating others for being "pretentious" in their choice of name has a username that incorporates "Sir"?

[Neon Fox]

Who do you think you are to a) decide your own name...?

I think I am the person who's going to be called by it, and you can go pound sand if you don't like it.

I hang out in a social circle where it's common (in fact, nearly universal) for people to have two names, one of which is self-chosen and used in a particular context. It happens that I have a very, very hard time remembering any name that's not the first I was introduced to a person by--e.g. I will call them "Osric" all the time even if their wallet name is "John", regardless of context. Nonetheless, when a friend of mine told me that he didn't want to use "Cristofano" anymore, I went out of my way to remember to use "Dave" instead. Because it's his name and he gets to decide it. Insisting on calling a person by a name they don't want to use because you like it better is condescending crap...which I'll grant is not surprising, given the source of the argument.

Someone who insisted on changing their name every couple of weeks would be extremely tiresome, but they'd also be a self-correcting problem in that they'd shortly find no one wanted to bother hanging out with them anymore.

[sirdanilot]

I assume that Cristofano was the 'nickname' in your group of friends, and he wanted to revert to his original name. I suppose that's understandable though such a change to me would imply some sort of tension in the group of friends certainly.

In Holland, we have two kinds of names:

Voornaam: The official first names in your passport. Most people have two or more first names (I have two for example).
Roepnaam: The first name with which you are called. Most people aren't called by their passport first name. For example if your first name is 'Geertruida Maria Josephina' your 'roepnaam' can be 'Trudy' or 'Josefien'. Many birth cards say 'We have recieved a daughter, 'Geertruida Maria Josephina', wij noemen haar 'Josefien'. (we call her). Now my first name happens to match my 'roepnaam' but this is not so for everyone.

The roepnaam s not self-assigned, it is assigned by the parents. For many official documents, all you fill in are your first letters (so G.M.J. in this case) and your 'roepnaam' (Josefien). The passport first name is only used on your passport and when ordering an airplane ticket or something like that.

[Grunnen]

Of course I do, but that doesn't mean that that is a core value of being Dutch these days.

So what *is* a core value of being Dutch, then?
Acting normally and not making yourself look more important than you are is certainly important. Or maybe you are pretentious yourself and are therefore so vehemently defending that 'doe maar normaal dan doe je al gek genoeg' is not Dutch?

Not making yourself seem more important may very well be higher regarded in Dutch society than in Anglo-Saxon cultures. How that ties into not using language-appropriate versions of your name you still have to demonstrate.

All I can say is that, if that's really how Dutch etiquette works, than it is fundamentally different from the Anglo-American system, one of the basic principles of which is that you do not meet rudeness with rudeness.

Yes it is very different. Als je een grote bek hebt kan je hem terug verwachten (if you have a big mouth you can expect it back).
For example I was at a concert in a church some time ago, and there was a grumpy old lady who was probably having some mental issues. She was shouting at everyone not to sit next to her and to shut up, and she even hit some people with the concert programme leaflet (!!!). So when she decided to hit me (I was touching my face or something and she didn't like it) I simply said rotwijf (rotten woman, stupid woman). That's perfectly acceptable.
Or if you are on the bike and someone drives on the left side of the road so you almost have a collision, it is also okay to scold them.

Of course not everyone will agree with me on that one, but in general if people behave negatively I am not going to 'keep up appearances'.

What on earth does the example of this woman have to do with changing ones name?
Also, I don't think it's perfectly acceptable to react the way you did. I understand it, but that's not the same as approving of it. It's also interesting to think how it reflects on Christian morality if the people in this church indeed agree with you on this.
So, having established that there are now two Dutch people here who disagree with essentially everything you say about Dutch etiquette, and you are alone in your claims, could you at least agree your arguing your personal point of view, and not a position that is mainstream in our society?

[Neon Fox]

I assume that Cristofano was the 'nickname' in your group of friends, and he wanted to revert to his original name. I suppose that's understandable though such a change to me would imply some sort of tension in the group of friends certainly.

That 'whoosh' you're hearing is the sound of the point flying over your head, Danny-boy.

[sirdanilot]

Also, what if I had a foreign sounding name, would I change it on a job application to avoid being discriminated?

Yes. Most definitely yes. Now I do happen to have a Dutch surname so it is not necessary for me, but if I had a name of Turkish origin I would certainly change it in job applications, as odds of getting the job with the same motivation letter are simply dramatically lower for people with Turkish or Morrocan sounding names.

Not making yourself seem more important may very well be higher regarded in Dutch society than in Anglo-Saxon cultures. How that ties into not using language-appropriate versions of your name you still have to demonstrate.

Because your name is what your parents called you, and changing that is preposterous. If you are called 'Maarten', are you going to change that to 'Martin' in England? That's ridiculous. It assumes that people are too stupid to understand that foreign people have foreign names. It assumes people are too stupid to grasp the concept of a foreign name.
I would always introduce myself with just 'Maarten'. Now if people pronounce it something like 'Martin', of course I wouldn't correct them. But I would not change my own name just because others can't pronounce it.

What on earth does the example of this woman have to do with changing ones name?
Also, I don't think it's perfectly acceptable to react the way you did. I understand it, but that's not the same as approving of it. It's also interesting to think how it reflects on Christian morality if the people in this church indeed agree with you on this.

It was a classical concert that happened to be in a Church, it wasn't a church service, mind you. This would never happen in a church service as I generally know everyone when in the church service, and should there be someone whom I know has mental health issues I would react accordingly. But this was an unknown woman being extremely rude and even physically violent. Not that people are going to be hurt if she slaps you with her booklet but it's certainly out of all bounds.

Her behaviour was absolutely ridiculous and she surely had some mental issues. I did not shout 'rotwijf' all accross the church hall I just said it quite softly. I am not even sure if she heard it as old people tend not to have perfect hearing. In any case she did not react to it.

So, having established that there are now two Dutch people here who disagree with essentially everything you say about Dutch etiquette, and you are alone in your claims, could you at least agree your arguing your personal point of view, and not a position that is mainstream in our society?

No you don't disagree with it, you simply refuse to admit it because you want to keep a 'tolerant' appearance to outsiders. Newsflash: Dutch people aren't as 'tolerant' as they think they are. Dutch people have opinions on everything and will not accept rude behaviour silently. If you do, you're probably one of those persons who would do nothing if a train staff member is being physically abused right in front of your eyes as has happened quite recently.

[linguoboy]

The roepnaam s not self-assigned, it is assigned by the parents.

In this country, it's also common to have multiple given names and there is nothing the least bit unusual about changing which one you are called by. My ex is named "David Michael". "David" was the name given him by his godmother, but within the family, he was always "Mike" (something I did not know until the first time his mother called). At some point in his adolescence, he decided he'd rather go by "David". I don't have the slightest idea what his motives were in making this change and I don't care; when I met him he was "David" and that's what I continue to call him, along with everyone else he knows in Chicago.

I also know a "Michaeleen Elizabeth" who decided to go by "Beth", a "James Keith" who decided to go by "James" rather than "Keith", and probably some other examples I can't recall right now because I've gotten so used to their current name I've forgotten what they used to go by before. It just isn't a big deal (or any sort of deal, really).

Because your name is what your parents called you, and changing that is preposterous.

You keep repeating this as if it had some kind of explanatory power. It doesn't. My parents told me to be home when the streetlights came on and be in bed by 9 p.m. But now I'm an adult, and I get to choose how late I stay out and when to go to bed. I also get to choose my own name. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Neon Fox]

I also know a "Michaeleen Elizabeth" who decided to go by "Beth", a "James Keith" who decided to go by "James" rather than "Keith", and probably some other examples I can't recall right now because I've gotten so used to their current name I've forgotten what they used to go by before. It just isn't a big deal (or any sort of deal, really).

I know a guy who's named Leonard Robert after his father; his dad is "Len" and he is "Rob". Makes for much less confusion.

[linguoboy]

I also know a "Michaeleen Elizabeth" who decided to go by "Beth", a "James Keith" who decided to go by "James" rather than "Keith", and probably some other examples I can't recall right now because I've gotten so used to their current name I've forgotten what they used to go by before. It just isn't a big deal (or any sort of deal, really).

I know a guy who's named Leonard Robert after his father; his dad is "Len" and he is "Rob". Makes for much less confusion.

Yeah, I was thinking about examples like that, since being named for your father seems to be more of a thing here in the US than in a lot of other places. I've met people who calling them by their full given name gets you a response like, "My name is 'Mike'; 'Michael' is my father." I've known some people who used initials, e.g. their father is "Rob" and they're "RJ". My dad was "Billy" while his father was alive because granddaddy was "Bill". Now "Bill" is what he goes by. "X Boy" and "Junior" seem to be obsolete nowadays, but I still do hear "Little X" contrasted to "Big X".

[masako]

I am an example of what Neon Fox and LB are talking about.

I am a junior...and to avoid confusion until I was 18 months old, I was called by a derivation of my (and my father's) middle name. Around that same time my father was a police officer serving with a man whose name happened to be a version of my (and my father's) first name. I was almost 9 y/o before I knew that my name was not this other version. To this day, I prefer to go by either the nickname I was given, or my surname...a habit from my time in the military.

When people choose to call me by my given name, or some alteration other than the one I use, I tend to think of them as either a complete ass, or I realize quickly that I will not enjoy bothering to get to know them because they lack the decency to call me by the name I choose...one that is so very similar to my given name that I wonder how they could be so ignorant of it.

Imagine being called "Robby" by someone you meet, after you explicitly tell them to call you "Rob", and instead they just revert to calling you "Robert".

EDIT: I'd also love to know what is considered "a name of Turkish origin"...cause I have suspicions it's not what you think it is.

[pharazon]

Okay so who is being impolite here? The only people who I see behaving impolitely in this thread are you guys, throwing around swear words and all.

I think you guys miss the point; if someone is so pretentious as to change their own name, they do not deserve to be called by their new name. You have lost all forms of social good will and credit, if you do something which is so utterly pretentious (and you don't have extreme reasons for it). So yes, I realize that using a mocking nickname or using the old name is impolite, but people who are so pretentious simply are no longer deserving of politeness.

But this is what politeness is for: to guide interactions with people who you have no particular reason to like, or maybe even have some reason to dislike. It's easy to be nice to people you like, you don't get virtue points for that. As an example, you've requested that people in this thread be polite to you even after you've stated a pretty uncompromising opinion that gives them reason to dislike you.

[Neon Fox]

Hmmm, here's an interesting scenario. It's from a TV show, but it illustrates some of the points here. If you don't want to be spoiled for a plot thread from Agents of SHIELD, stop reading.

There's a character who was lost to her parents when she was an infant. She didn't know who they were, and they didn't know what had happened to her. They'd named her Daisy, but she didn't know that. The foster care system in which she was raised assigned her the name Mary Sue, which she hated, so when she left the system in her late teens she chose the name Skye. She introduces herself as Skye and pretty clearly thinks of herself that way, too.

Skye fell in with the titular SHIELD agents, who of course call her Skye. But then we met her father. He's obsessed with the idea of getting his family back together; he addresses and refers to his daughter as "Daisy"--even in the face of her own objections--and gets angry when anyone else calls her Skye. If I'm not mistaken, Danny-boy's position is that the father is right; she should begin to use the name her parents gave her and give up the one she chose for herself, even though the former means nothing to her.

[sirdanilot]

Indeed such situations are quite complex. You say the foster care 'system' assigned her name; in reality the adoption parents generally assign the names of the children they adopt. And your adoption parents are for all intents and purposes your parents.

It's not very easy to apply a situation from these series to real life.

[Neon Fox]

Indeed such situations are quite complex. You say the foster care 'system' assigned her name; in reality the adoption parents generally assign the names of the children they adopt. And your adoption parents are for all intents and purposes your parents.

And if she had been adopted, that would be relevant. She wasn't; she lived in foster care and orphanages. If she'd had adoptive parents who had given her a name, I would have mentioned that.

Given that information, do you care to actually respond, or are you more in the mood for yet more irrelevant digression in an attempt to mask the weakness of your position?

[sirdanilot]

You know I did say that in some cases a name change can be legitimate, even if it's only to actually stand a chance to get a job for examply by changing your name into something Dutch if you have a Turkish name in Holland.

I cannot judge this particular case as a) it's fiction b) I do not know enough about it c) it is quite a complex situation.

[linguoboy]

I cannot judge this particular case as a) it's fiction b) I do not know enough about it c) it is quite a complex situation.

Is this really the same person who less than 12 hours ago said:

What I am referring at, for all intents and purposes, is people who change their first name just because they are whiney or pretentious. Which goes most of the time.

So when it comes to "most" name changes--cases about which you know absolutely nothing at all--you're totally comfortable judging them all "whiney or pretentious". But then when it comes to this single case about which you know slightly more than nothing, suddenly you don't know enough because "it is quite a complex situation". Got it.

By the way, what's the story on our little wager? Are you ready to set some ground rules/victory conditions?

[masako]

You know I did say that in some cases a name change can be legitimate, even if it's only to actually stand a chance to get a job for examply by changing your name into something Dutch if you have a Turkish name in Holland.

What is a "Turkish" name that you have personally seen/heard?

[sirdanilot]

You know I did say that in some cases a name change can be legitimate, even if it's only to actually stand a chance to get a job for examply by changing your name into something Dutch if you have a Turkish name in Holland.

What is a "Turkish" name that you have personally seen/heard?

You are aware that Turkish people are a very large minority in Holland, right...? The same goes for Morrocan people.

I grew up in a neighbourhood with a lot of Turkish people. But I am not sure if I can spell their names right. But if your name is Meltem, Hasan, Sefika, Erkan, Özmel, Cihan, Ahmad, Hatice or something like that you definitely have much less odds to get a job in Holland than if you had a typically Dutch name.

There are many examples in the news of people applying for a job with a Turkish name and getting negative response, then sending the exact same letter with a Dutch name and getting a very enthousiast response.

[Bristel]

When I was in middle school/junior high school I would go by my middle name Ryan, instead of Timothy. Before that it was TR because I thought it was cool. No one ever decided to yell at me or get salty for trying to use a different name.

In high school, I took Japanese for a few years, and while my teacher could pronounce my names just fine, I usually was called ティモシー君 or when we got to choose a Japanese name 星野栄作 (Hoshino Eisaku) and えいさっくん (Eisakkun) as a sort of pet-name by my teacher.

In Spain, I went by Timoteo because that's the Spanish/Catalan version of my name. I'm sure Timothée would be used in France. And if I wanted to be silly, I could go by the equivalent (but not related) Tadhg in Ireland, should I feel really Celtic then.

[Grunnen]

Because your name is what your parents called you, and changing that is preposterous.

You keep asserting that. Repeating an assertion doesn't make it any more true.

It was a classical concert that happened to be in a Church, it wasn't a church service, mind you. This would never happen in a church service as I generally know everyone when in the church service, and should there be someone whom I know has mental health issues I would react accordingly. But this was an unknown woman being extremely rude and even physically violent. Not that people are going to be hurt if she slaps you with her booklet but it's certainly out of all bounds.

Her behaviour was absolutely ridiculous and she surely had some mental issues. I did not shout 'rotwijf' all accross the church hall I just said it quite softly. I am not even sure if she heard it as old people tend not to have perfect hearing. In any case she did not react to it.

Still an extremely flawed analogy though.

So, having established that there are now two Dutch people here who disagree with essentially everything you say about Dutch etiquette, and you are alone in your claims, could you at least agree your arguing your personal point of view, and not a position that is mainstream in our society?

No you don't disagree with it, you simply refuse to admit it because you want to keep a 'tolerant' appearance to outsiders. Newsflash: Dutch people aren't as 'tolerant' as they think they are. Dutch people have opinions on everything and will not accept rude behaviour silently. If you do, you're probably one of those persons who would do nothing if a train staff member is being physically abused right in front of your eyes as has happened quite recently.

Oh come on, I'll decide for myself what I think about stuff, I don't need you to do that for me.

[Matrix]

No you don't disagree with it, you simply refuse to admit it because you want to keep a 'tolerant' appearance to outsiders. Newsflash: Dutch people aren't as 'tolerant' as they think they are. Dutch people have opinions on everything and will not accept rude behaviour silently. If you do, you're probably one of those persons who would do nothing if a train staff member is being physically abused right in front of your eyes as has happened quite recently.

So basically you're projecting your personal assholishness on to your entire culture in order to feel better about yourself? gj m8

[Neon Fox]

I cannot judge this particular case as a) it's fiction b) I do not know enough about it c) it is quite a complex situation.

By your lights, you know everything you need to know. Come on, have the courage of your stupid convictions at least! Or tell us why in this particular case the father's being a jerk by using the name he and his wife picked. You said in so many words that it's "whiny and pretentious" to change the name your parents gave you, full stop, no exceptions. I see no reason why that should change just because the character didn't know the name her parents gave her until she was an adult...

[linguoboy]

In Spain, I went by Timoteo because that's the Spanish/Catalan version of my name.

The Spanish/Galician form, you mean. The Catalan form is Timoteu.

And if I wanted to be silly, I could go by the equivalent (but not related) Tadhg in Ireland, should I feel really Celtic then.

I use the Irish equivalent of my given name on Irish-language sites. It's such common practice no one bats an eyelash.



C'mon, sirdanilot, $10 American! Ripe for the picking!

[Bristel]

In Spain, I went by Timoteo because that's the Spanish/Catalan version of my name.

The Spanish/Galician form, you mean. The Catalan form is Timoteu.

And if I wanted to be silly, I could go by the equivalent (but not related) Tadhg in Ireland, should I feel really Celtic then.

I use the Irish equivalent of my given name on Irish-language sites. It's such common practice no one bats an eyelash.

Timoteo /timoteu/, as the final -o is pronounced /u/.

And of course, the Wiki is not working where I'm at, so I can't check it for sure on the Catalan version.

[linguoboy]

Timoteo /timoteu/, as the final -o is pronounced /u/.

Only in Eastern Catalan, dude.

And of course, the Wiki is not working where I'm at, so I can't check it for sure on the Catalan version.

Trust me, you don't need to. It's also Mateu, not Mateo; Amadeu, not Amadeo; Romeu, not Romeo; Ireneu, not Ireneo, and Bartomeu [sic], not Bartolomé. If there's one thing Catalans are totally gay for, it's falling diphthongs like eu. (And if there's one thing I'm totally gay for, it's Catalan names.)