I'm looking for good, simple Old Saxon (Sahsisc, Old Low German) resources. I've been toying around with an idea to create a conlang based on it.
The Wiki seems to have a pretty fair amount of info, but there seems to be gaps. (In particular, phonology isn't well defined because of ambiguity, and there's probably a lot on the noun and verb forms that aren't detailed.)
Does anyone have any snippets or some simple resources for it that I may have a (digital) copy of?
Useful Old Saxon resources?
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Bristel
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Useful Old Saxon resources?
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
-
GreenBowTie
- Lebom
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- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:17 am
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Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
here's part of the OS chapter in orrin w. robinson's old english and its closest relatives: a survey of the earliest germanic languages summarized:
spelling and pronunciation
consonants
/p t k/
/b d g/
/f θ s h/
/r l j w/
/m n/
* /p t/ indicated by <p t>; /k/ indicated by <k> or <c>; <c> before <e> or <i> indicates /ts/ ([ts]?)
* /b d/ "probably" [t k] word-finally and before voiceless consonants (the examples given by the book are lamb and flôd)
* /g/ has a number of variants: [g] word-initially, medially after n, and when geminated (gôd = [g], gangan = [ŋg], seggean = [gg]); [gk] when word-final after n (lang = [ŋk]); [ɣ] medially before a back vowel or voiced consonant (dages, fuglôs); [ɣʲ] (i think? his transcription is a little confusing) medially before front vowels [wege]; [x] word-finally [dag]
* /f θ s/ have voiced allophones [v ð z] ([v] spelled <ƀ>, at least in normalized text); voiceless versions appear initially, finally, and before voiceless consonants, while voiced versions appear medially between voiced sounds
* [v] is spelled <ƀ>, at least in normalized text; /θ/ is spelled <th> initially and either <th> or <ð> elsewhere, regardless of pronunciation; [s] and [z] are always spelled <s>
* /h/ is [h] initially and medially before vowels, [x] finally and medially before consonants
* /n/ is [ŋ] before velars
* /w/ is usually spelled <uu>, but sometimes just <u> (especially before vocalic /u/)
* /j/ is usually <i> but sometimes <gi>; sometimes <e> after consonants
vowels
the book describes some of the vowels' realizations as ambiguous. normalized texts have five short and five long vowels:
a e i o u /a/; /ɛ/ and /e/; /ɪ/; /ɔ/; /ʊ/
â ê î ô û /aː/; /ɛː/ and /eː/; /iː/; /oː/; /uː/
* <e> can represent /ɛ/ or /e/ (the latter shows the umlaut of Gmc /a/)
* <ê> can represent /eː/ or /ɛː/ (the latter shows the reflex of Gmc /ai/)
* <ô> can represent /oː/ or /ɔː/ (the latter shows the reflex of Gmc /au/)
* the transcription the author uses doesn't indicate whether /a/ or /aː/ have front or back realizations
* though not indicated in OS texts, back vowels were almost certainly umlauted before syllables with front vowels or /j/
phonological developments from Gmc
* Gmc e1 > OS â
* umlaut from Gmc is not very well indicated in OS texts, but is certainly more prevalent than spellings would suggest
* Gmc diphthongs /ai/, /au/ become OS /ɛː/, /ɔː/, much more consistently than OHG or Old Low Franconian. these new vowels were almost certainly pronounced distinctly from the old vowels they seem on the page to have merged with; later dialect evidence substantiates this, and in some OS texts the "original" ê and ô are written as <ie> and <uo>, OHG spelling conventions apparently introduced out of necessity
* unlike Gothic and Old Norse, OS does not sharpen Gmc semivowel clusters (/jj/, /ww/ > /j/, /w/, not /ggj/, /gg/
* unlike Gothic and Old Norse, OS loses /w/ in /ngw/
* Gmc /z/ > /r/
* gemination is widespread, affecting every consonant but /r/ and taking place before /j/, sometimes /w/, often /r/ and /l/, and occasionally /m/ and /n/; in contrast to the rest of West Germanic, the /j/ usually remains
* nasals are dropped before any voiceless fricative and the preceding vowel is lengthened
i can sum up the rest of the chapter tomorrow if you'd like
spelling and pronunciation
consonants
/p t k/
/b d g/
/f θ s h/
/r l j w/
/m n/
* /p t/ indicated by <p t>; /k/ indicated by <k> or <c>; <c> before <e> or <i> indicates /ts/ ([ts]?)
* /b d/ "probably" [t k] word-finally and before voiceless consonants (the examples given by the book are lamb and flôd)
* /g/ has a number of variants: [g] word-initially, medially after n, and when geminated (gôd = [g], gangan = [ŋg], seggean = [gg]); [gk] when word-final after n (lang = [ŋk]); [ɣ] medially before a back vowel or voiced consonant (dages, fuglôs); [ɣʲ] (i think? his transcription is a little confusing) medially before front vowels [wege]; [x] word-finally [dag]
* /f θ s/ have voiced allophones [v ð z] ([v] spelled <ƀ>, at least in normalized text); voiceless versions appear initially, finally, and before voiceless consonants, while voiced versions appear medially between voiced sounds
* [v] is spelled <ƀ>, at least in normalized text; /θ/ is spelled <th> initially and either <th> or <ð> elsewhere, regardless of pronunciation; [s] and [z] are always spelled <s>
* /h/ is [h] initially and medially before vowels, [x] finally and medially before consonants
* /n/ is [ŋ] before velars
* /w/ is usually spelled <uu>, but sometimes just <u> (especially before vocalic /u/)
* /j/ is usually <i> but sometimes <gi>; sometimes <e> after consonants
vowels
the book describes some of the vowels' realizations as ambiguous. normalized texts have five short and five long vowels:
a e i o u /a/; /ɛ/ and /e/; /ɪ/; /ɔ/; /ʊ/
â ê î ô û /aː/; /ɛː/ and /eː/; /iː/; /oː/; /uː/
* <e> can represent /ɛ/ or /e/ (the latter shows the umlaut of Gmc /a/)
* <ê> can represent /eː/ or /ɛː/ (the latter shows the reflex of Gmc /ai/)
* <ô> can represent /oː/ or /ɔː/ (the latter shows the reflex of Gmc /au/)
* the transcription the author uses doesn't indicate whether /a/ or /aː/ have front or back realizations
* though not indicated in OS texts, back vowels were almost certainly umlauted before syllables with front vowels or /j/
phonological developments from Gmc
* Gmc e1 > OS â
* umlaut from Gmc is not very well indicated in OS texts, but is certainly more prevalent than spellings would suggest
* Gmc diphthongs /ai/, /au/ become OS /ɛː/, /ɔː/, much more consistently than OHG or Old Low Franconian. these new vowels were almost certainly pronounced distinctly from the old vowels they seem on the page to have merged with; later dialect evidence substantiates this, and in some OS texts the "original" ê and ô are written as <ie> and <uo>, OHG spelling conventions apparently introduced out of necessity
* unlike Gothic and Old Norse, OS does not sharpen Gmc semivowel clusters (/jj/, /ww/ > /j/, /w/, not /ggj/, /gg/
* unlike Gothic and Old Norse, OS loses /w/ in /ngw/
* Gmc /z/ > /r/
* gemination is widespread, affecting every consonant but /r/ and taking place before /j/, sometimes /w/, often /r/ and /l/, and occasionally /m/ and /n/; in contrast to the rest of West Germanic, the /j/ usually remains
* nasals are dropped before any voiceless fricative and the preceding vowel is lengthened
i can sum up the rest of the chapter tomorrow if you'd like
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Bristel
- Smeric
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Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
Thanks for the info. I would like more if you have the time to post it.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
-
GreenBowTie
- Lebom
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:17 am
- Location: the darkest depths of the bone-chilling night
Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
sure, here you go!
nouns and pronouns
* Gmc masc nom sg ending -az disappears completely, both in a-stem nouns and adjectives; compare OS dag, gôd "day, good" to Goth dags, gôþs[/b] and ON dagr, góðr
* nom pl of masc a-stem nouns is -os: fuglos "birds"
* presence of dual first- and second-person pronouns: wit; git "we/you two" vs. wî, we; gî, ge
* masc 3pl pronoun begins with h- in nominative; presence of h- is much less frequent in other cases and genders. hê "he" vs. imu, siu, ira, etc.
* "most" OS texts do not distinguish between accusative and dative for 1st and 2nd singular pronouns: mî, thî
* no reflexive pronoun; as a corollary, the 3sg masc possessive is is, cognate with eng. "his" rather than german "sein"
* like all early gmc languages except gothic, OS has an intensified demonstrative pronoun consisting of the regular one plus -si: masc nom sg thê, these, fem acc sg thia, thesa, neut dat pl thêm, thesun opposite gothic sa, þô, þaim
verbs
* like all gmc languages except gothic, OS no longer uses reduplication to form the past tense of certain verbs; most former members of tthis class are now strong verbs (hêtan–hêt, fâhan–feng), though some are weak (sâian–sâida); compare gothic haitan–haihait, fâhan–faifâh, saian–saisô
* gothic and ON have a series of verb suffixes (verb classes maybe?) with -na with multiple meanings, often "become X" (the example presented is Goth weihnai namo þein "may thy name become holy"); like the rest of the gmc languages, this class is absent in OS: compare gewîhid sî thin namo
* 2sg preterite indicative of strong verbs has ending -i: niman ("take", inf.), nam (1/3sg pret ind), nâmun (1pl pret ind), and nâmi (2sg pret ind); this is similar to the rest of the WGmc languages except old frisian, which is younger and shows -st (Goth and ON both show -t)
* OS forms passive through auxiliary verbs such as werðan "become" rather than a morphological passive
* 3sg of "to be" is usually is; ist appears sometimes but usually in texts with other evidence of OHG influence such as the spellings "uo, ie" for "ô, ê"
* unlike many of the gmc languages, OS has a single verb ending for all plural persons: wî, gî, sia kiosad] "we, you, they choose"; wî, gî, sia kurun "we, you, they chose", etc.
* the words for "stand" and "go" are frequently standan, gangan; less frequently stân, gân
* unlike goth and ON, but like the rest, verbal infinitive can act as a gerund and sometimes takes case endings
nouns and pronouns
* Gmc masc nom sg ending -az disappears completely, both in a-stem nouns and adjectives; compare OS dag, gôd "day, good" to Goth dags, gôþs[/b] and ON dagr, góðr
* nom pl of masc a-stem nouns is -os: fuglos "birds"
* presence of dual first- and second-person pronouns: wit; git "we/you two" vs. wî, we; gî, ge
* masc 3pl pronoun begins with h- in nominative; presence of h- is much less frequent in other cases and genders. hê "he" vs. imu, siu, ira, etc.
* "most" OS texts do not distinguish between accusative and dative for 1st and 2nd singular pronouns: mî, thî
* no reflexive pronoun; as a corollary, the 3sg masc possessive is is, cognate with eng. "his" rather than german "sein"
* like all early gmc languages except gothic, OS has an intensified demonstrative pronoun consisting of the regular one plus -si: masc nom sg thê, these, fem acc sg thia, thesa, neut dat pl thêm, thesun opposite gothic sa, þô, þaim
verbs
* like all gmc languages except gothic, OS no longer uses reduplication to form the past tense of certain verbs; most former members of tthis class are now strong verbs (hêtan–hêt, fâhan–feng), though some are weak (sâian–sâida); compare gothic haitan–haihait, fâhan–faifâh, saian–saisô
* gothic and ON have a series of verb suffixes (verb classes maybe?) with -na with multiple meanings, often "become X" (the example presented is Goth weihnai namo þein "may thy name become holy"); like the rest of the gmc languages, this class is absent in OS: compare gewîhid sî thin namo
* 2sg preterite indicative of strong verbs has ending -i: niman ("take", inf.), nam (1/3sg pret ind), nâmun (1pl pret ind), and nâmi (2sg pret ind); this is similar to the rest of the WGmc languages except old frisian, which is younger and shows -st (Goth and ON both show -t)
* OS forms passive through auxiliary verbs such as werðan "become" rather than a morphological passive
* 3sg of "to be" is usually is; ist appears sometimes but usually in texts with other evidence of OHG influence such as the spellings "uo, ie" for "ô, ê"
* unlike many of the gmc languages, OS has a single verb ending for all plural persons: wî, gî, sia kiosad] "we, you, they choose"; wî, gî, sia kurun "we, you, they chose", etc.
* the words for "stand" and "go" are frequently standan, gangan; less frequently stân, gân
* unlike goth and ON, but like the rest, verbal infinitive can act as a gerund and sometimes takes case endings
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Bristel
- Smeric
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Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
Sorry for necroposting my own thread, but does anyone know of a good wordlist or dictionary online for Old Saxon/Sahsisc?
There seems to be plenty of info on some words and grammar, but there's not a good list of words available, and even when narrowing my search to keep Old English/Anglo-Saxon out of the results, there's still not a lot that I could find.
There seems to be plenty of info on some words and grammar, but there's not a good list of words available, and even when narrowing my search to keep Old English/Anglo-Saxon out of the results, there's still not a lot that I could find.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
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Herra Ratatoskr
- Avisaru
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- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:26 pm
- Location: Missouri (loves company!)
Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
Good resources? Not too sure. Wiktionary's page on Old Saxon Lemmas has about 1800 entries, but I can't vouch for their quality. This page looks decent, but it's almost entirely in German (don't know if that is an issue for you). It does, however, have this Modern English to Old Saxon word list.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!
There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't
Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!
There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't
Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!
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GreenBowTie
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- Location: the darkest depths of the bone-chilling night
Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
here's a couple texts from that same book, as well as glossaries for them:
parable of the sower
the lord's prayer
glossary
In alphabetizing Old Saxon, ƀ and ð follow b and d, respectively; c is treated as k, and uu is listed separately after u. Unless specified otherwise, nouns and pronouns are nominative singular, adjectives are masculine nominative singular, and verbs are infinitives. The parenthetical identification of any form has reference only to the Readings, and is not necessarily an exhaustive list of all possible identifications of that form in the language. [note: i removed all the cross-references when typing this up]
parable of the sower
More: show
More: show
In alphabetizing Old Saxon, ƀ and ð follow b and d, respectively; c is treated as k, and uu is listed separately after u. Unless specified otherwise, nouns and pronouns are nominative singular, adjectives are masculine nominative singular, and verbs are infinitives. The parenthetical identification of any form has reference only to the Readings, and is not necessarily an exhaustive list of all possible identifications of that form in the language. [note: i removed all the cross-references when typing this up]
More: show
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Bristel
- Smeric
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Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
Thank you both. These are helpful. I will keep looking as well.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
I don't know how good it is, but there's this grammar sketch by James Cathey.
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
– The Gospel of Thomas
– The Gospel of Thomas
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Bristel
- Smeric
- Posts: 1258
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Re: Useful Old Saxon resources?
Ik thankon thik.Xephyr wrote:I don't know how good it is, but there's this grammar sketch by James Cathey.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró