Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlearn

[gmalivuk]

I always assumed the "Genghis" spelling was from Italian, where it does have basically the same pronunciation as the original.

[Travis B.]

I always assumed the "Genghis" spelling was from Italian, where it does have basically the same pronunciation as the original.

I was actually thinking about the same, and that the <e> in Genghis reflects New Persian /æ/ or /e/ (/e/ would make sense w.r.t. how it was presumably borrowed from Middle Mongolian, and that the present-day /æ/ could be a subsequent sound change; I don't know enough about Persian diachronics to say exactly here).

[jal]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].


JAL

[Astraios]

I was actually thinking about the same, and that the <e> in Genghis reflects New Persian /æ/ or /e/ (/e/ would make sense w.r.t. how it was presumably borrowed from Middle Mongolian, and that the present-day /æ/ could be a subsequent sound change; I don't know enough about Persian diachronics to say exactly here).

There is a general trend of mixing up unstressed /e/ and /æ/ (and even /o/ sometimes) in Tehrani New Persian, while Tajiki better preserves the original values of the Classical short vowels. (Cf. for example Classical and Tajiki daraxt vs. Tehrani deraxt “tree”, with dissimilation from the following /ˈæ/, or safēd vs. sefid “white”, with assimilation.) As for Genghis, the Tajiki form is /tʃiŋˈgiz/, so the Classical word must have been Cingīz, which is even closer to the Mongolian, and which should have become */tʃeŋˈgiz/ in Tehrani, and probably did, considering that most of the forms derived from Persian have an /e/-vowel, not an /a/. However, /-æŋˈgiz/ is a common rhyme in Tehrani, while /-eŋˈgiz/ is so rare as to be pretty much non-existent in native words, so likely the native rhyme has since influenced the pronunciation of the foreign name.

[hwhatting]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].

Don't worry, [d_Z] is the "dictionary" pronunciation and absolutely correct, it's just that many people don't seem to know that and pronounce it with [g]. Merriam-Webster, which I assume reflects American usage, has [d_Z] as the main pronuciation and [g] as a variant.

[Travis B.]

The question I have is how did tʃ become dʒ? My guess is from filtering through Turkish, because Turkish frequently has initial voicing of plosives, as is reflected by Turkish Cengiz.

[Zaarin]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].

Don't worry, [d_Z] is the "dictionary" pronunciation and absolutely correct, it's just that many people don't seem to know that and pronounce it with [g]. Merriam-Webster, which I assume reflects American usage, has [d_Z] as the main pronuciation and [g] as a variant.

Really? I have never heard an American pronounce Genghis with /ʤ/. I'm always torn: /ʤ/ is closer to correct but risks sounding uneducated in English.

[Travis B.]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].

Don't worry, [d_Z] is the "dictionary" pronunciation and absolutely correct, it's just that many people don't seem to know that and pronounce it with [g]. Merriam-Webster, which I assume reflects American usage, has [d_Z] as the main pronuciation and [g] as a variant.

Really? I have never heard an American pronounce Genghis with /ʤ/. I'm always torn: /ʤ/ is closer to correct but risks sounding uneducated in English.

I used to always pronounce it with /g/, but I am now thinking of pronouncing it with /dʒ/ instead.

[hwhatting]

Don't worry, [d_Z] is the "dictionary" pronunciation and absolutely correct, it's just that many people don't seem to know that and pronounce it with [g]. Merriam-Webster, which I assume reflects American usage, has [d_Z] as the main pronuciation and [g] as a variant.

Really? I have never heard an American pronounce Genghis with /ʤ/. I'm always torn: /ʤ/ is closer to correct but risks sounding uneducated in English.

Well, maybe it reflects American normative usage, and the Americans don't know about or care for the norm. You guys tell me.

[linguoboy]

Really? I have never heard an American pronounce Genghis with /ʤ/. I'm always torn: /ʤ/ is closer to correct but risks sounding uneducated in English.

I've been pronouncing "Genghis" with /ʤ/ for two decades or so and I've never been challenged on it. But I also can't recall hearing another speaker of American English use that pronunciation. Even non-Americans (e.g. Swedish pop band Miike Snow in their eponymous single) imitate the pronunciation with /g/, so there's definitely a case for calling it "normative".

It really makes me curious to know where the spelling pronunciation with /g/ originated and how it spread.

[alynnidalar]

I've heard it both ways (insert Psych gif here) but have always said it with /g/, myself.

[jmcd]

In general, English g before e/i either patterns as /dZ/ as with Romance loans or as /g/ as with native Germanic words. It might be that 'Genghis' has more a Germanic feel to it than a Romance one.

[linguoboy]

In general, English g before e/i either patterns as /dZ/ as with Romance loans or as /g/ as with native Germanic words. It might be that 'Genghis' has more a Germanic feel to it than a Romance one.

The presence of initial /g/ in the second syllable probably has at least as much to do with it, if not more. (Americans tend to treat <gh> identical to <g>. Cf. Ghiradelli, a popular brand of chocolate, locally pronounced with /ʤ/.)

[Qwynegold]

Even non-Americans (e.g. Swedish pop band Miike Snow in their eponymous single) imitate the pronunciation with /g/, so there's definitely a case for calling it "normative".

Guh, they should've listened to this song first: https://youtu.be/pzmI3vAIhbE

[Zaarin]

It could also be a hyperforeignism.

[Pole, the]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].

In Polish: Dżyngis /dʐ-/ or Czyngis /tʂ-/.

[jal]

Guh, they should've listened to this song first: https://youtu.be/pzmI3vAIhbE

Hahah, brilliant, my new favourite song :)


JAL

[Bryan]

I still have no idea how 'alveolar' is pronounced. With -jə-?

/ælˈvi.ələr/, if i remember correctly. it's been a while since i've heard anyone say it out loud. that said, i think the other way is also possible.

My university professor pronounced it the "incorrect" way, according to this thread. If she pronounced it that way, then it is pronounced that way, to my mind. Kinda like "dour"; I'm never going to stop rhyming it with "sour"!

Anyway, as to mine, I've got loads. I went through a period of paranoia, aged ten to about thirteen, where I basically taught myself elocution and wiped out a lot of my native Esturine accent. But now, the remnants of my native accent I treasure. It's like, whatever, fuck you.

A sampling:
Pronounciation
Tribuneral
Perogative
Oldershot, bold, Olderney, etc (for Aldershot, bald, Alderney)

An interesting point: when "day" is unstressed, it become very much like "dee" in my speech. So, "Mondee", "birthdee", and so on. But I find it wearisome in the utmost that EVERYONE sees fit to "correct" this, even though this is an accepted standard variant! I mean, it's not even Estuary or dialect, ffs.

[Bryan]

In Dutch we write "Dzjengis", and I've ported that pronunciation over to English. Never occured to me it's pronounced with an initial [g].

Don't worry, [d_Z] is the "dictionary" pronunciation and absolutely correct, it's just that many people don't seem to know that and pronounce it with [g]. Merriam-Webster, which I assume reflects American usage, has [d_Z] as the main pronuciation and [g] as a variant.

Really? I have never heard an American pronounce Genghis with /ʤ/. I'm always torn: /ʤ/ is closer to correct but risks sounding uneducated in English.

I'd say the opposite. Whenever I hear /ʤ/ it sets my teeth on edge. Why? Specifically because it sounds like someone trying to sound educated. It's not the pronunciation that winds me up, it's the values I perceive the person using it to hold, rightly or wrongly!

I work with someone who always says /ʤ/enghis, guiotine (guillotine), paeya (paella), and Budapesht. Now, of course she is right; these pronounciations are closer to the original. However, it's the especial emphasis she always places on the word, as if daring anyone to challenge her. And she has from time to time been challenged, at which point the stuck-up glee in her eye is plain for all to see, as she haughtily reprimands the other person. My view is summed up by this Omid Djalili sketch: https://youtu.be/Jkxm5UTe-Xg (i.e. we're speaking English, so use English pronunciations for words, please, unless you wish to seem poncy).

The other problem is that, and this includes my work"mate", in trying to sound authentic, people often get the pronunciation wrong. Happens all the time, even in English words, bizarrely. I once knew a native English speaker who thought 'sold-year' was a more correct way of saying the word "soldier". I mean, Hyacinth Bucket/Bouquet Syndrome or what?

[jal]

I work with someone who always says /ʤ/enghis, (...) we're speaking English, so use English pronunciations for words, please, unless you wish to seem poncy)

There's nothing "English" about a spelling pronunciation.


JAL

[gmalivuk]

It's also funny to read the list as an American, because to my ear pronouncing Spanish 'll' words with the /l/ phoneme sounds like an affectation in the opposite direction. Rhyming "quesadilla" with "Godzilla" pokes fun at the speaker's exaggerated lack of sophistication, while pronouncing it more authentically is the norm.

(Or at least it is for the 'll'. Pronouncing the 'd' the way it is in Spanish would tend to send the "poncy" message. Like when my dad insisted on pronouncing Burger King's croissan'wich as though the first half of the word were sitting at a cafe in Paris. Like, you're sitting at the drivethrough talking to some poor high-school kid through a bad intercom, just pronounce it like they're expecting you to.)

[jal]

Like when my dad insisted on pronouncing Burger King's croissan'wich as though the first half of the word were sitting at a cafe in Paris.

That reminded me of a radio commercial for McDonalds breakfast I heard recently a few times, wherein an otherwise jovial, colloquial speaking man talks about getting a [kʁʷɐˈsɑ̃] for breakfast at McD's. Really jarring.

EDIT: The normal Dutch pronunciation is [kraˈsɑnt] or more typically diminutive [kraˈsɑɲcə].


JAL

[alynnidalar]

I work with someone who always says /ʤ/enghis, guiotine (guillotine), paeya (paella), and Budapesht.

People pronounce "guillotine" with an /l/? Huh.

[jmcd]

In general, English g before e/i either patterns as /dZ/ as with Romance loans or as /g/ as with native Germanic words. It might be that 'Genghis' has more a Germanic feel to it than a Romance one.

The presence of initial /g/ in the second syllable probably has at least as much to do with it, if not more. (Americans tend to treat <gh> identical to <g>. Cf. Ghiradelli, a popular brand of chocolate, locally pronounced with /ʤ/.)

That is also a plausible hypothesis. The test would be if there are non-Romance non-Germanic words in English that have /g/ once only and it's spelt <ge> or <gi> like 'geisha' but the /g/ not appearing the etymological form.

[Travis B.]

In English I am used to, guillotine is pronounced without an /l/, and the only Spanish word where <ll> is pronounced as /l/ is llama. Also, Ghiradelli is pronounced with a /g/. OTOH, Genghis Khan is pronounced with an /g/. (I did not know anyone pronounced Budapest with an /ʃ/ in English.)