The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Tropylium »

jal wrote:
Pole, the wrote:All your theories have a serious flaw. You assume that PIE has ever been a uniform language.
Well, it needn't have been uniform, but I don't think it counts to have a "last common ancestor" language that is actually two (or more) dialects that have pretty diverging phonologies.
This is a common misconception: a reconstructed language is not "a language", it is a language variety. The comparative method works on mere dialect differences just fine.

If we want to know what kind of errors might be creeping in to a reconstruction due to this though, we need to ask how a single language variety (which, yes, presumably coexisted with other related varieties) would expand into a full-fledged language of its own. It's possible that it would simply displace its relatives: cf. Latin, originally the language variety of a single town, driving all the rest of Italic to extinction. But it's just as possible, perhaps more so, that we'd be dealing with a koineization process where dialects gradually converge together. Essentially the immediate results will look like most dialects retaining some substrate features from an earlier dialect continuum; but the selection may be completely different from what we'd expect from substrate influence of the scenario 1 kind. (For example, it's conceivable that pre-Indo-Iranian *ǵʰerd-, versus mainline IE *ḱerd-, comes from a pre-PIE sister dialect that had done something different with stop voicing.)

Roger Blench has a (draft) paper Language levelling challenges all mathematical methods of language classification discussing some of this.

A third option of course is standard phylogenetic expansion: people from town 1 found town 2, people from this found towns 3-4, people from all of these go on to found towns 5-10, people from these organize and take over towns 11-40 (previously speaking something unrelated), etc. This is unlikely to actually start from a point, though. Most expansion events involve several dialects expanding in parallel.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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WeepingElf wrote:
Lich wrote:I'm sure this question has been asked a dozen times, but I'm not really sure how to effectively search for it, so I'll just ask: What are some two/three proper books on PIE that you guys would recommend (to a layman rather than a super-hardcore-linguist)?
The best place to start is Indo-European Language and Culture by Benjamin W. Fortson IV, which is well-written, comprehensive and affordable.
Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Lich wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:
Lich wrote:I'm sure this question has been asked a dozen times, but I'm not really sure how to effectively search for it, so I'll just ask: What are some two/three proper books on PIE that you guys would recommend (to a layman rather than a super-hardcore-linguist)?
The best place to start is Indo-European Language and Culture by Benjamin W. Fortson IV, which is well-written, comprehensive and affordable.
Thanks, I'll check it out.
Not only is it affordable btw, you can also read it online for free (if you want).

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Vijay wrote:Not only is it affordable btw, you can also read it online for free (if you want).
Ouch, an 18MiB page scanned document... So far for OCR...


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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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KathTheDragon wrote:Actually, on the putative split of *b > *w, *m, I believe I've found a conditioning for the different reflexation, <snip> both roots with *mR- have coda *w, and no roots with *wR- do. This is comparable to the dissimilation *w > m adjacent to *u found in Hittite (e.g. tumeni with the ending -weni, which conceivably began in PIE times already.
Here's an interesting data point - *mr(e)ǵʰu- 'short'. If this can be regarded as positive evidence, it would show that suffixal *u also triggers the hypothetical dissimilation.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Soap wrote:As a quick rebuttal to your second point, the GVS has plenty of exceptions, such as "great" having /e:/ instead of /i:/ like "beam", "dream", "team" etc. These exceptions are probably roughly about as common as those problem words in satem languages that people are pointing to as evidence for reconstructing a third velar series in PIE. But nobody would propose that OE had a second "ēa" diphthong that failed to rise to /i:/ in ModE and occurred in only a few words such as "great" and "break", right?

Smaller changes like /sk/ > /š/ are quite often unconditional and exceptionless, though, yes.
It just occurred to me that having exceptions isn't the same as being conditioned - with the former, there need not be rhyme or reason behind which words undergo the change and which do not, and isn't this the case with the GVS? Your examples seem to suggest so.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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I expect that a significant number of exceptions are due to the interaction of related language varieties.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Soap wrote:3) /q/ seems to be mostly in complementary distribution with /k/, yet there is apparently no corresponding /qʷ/ to pair with the labiovelar. (Unless it, too, merged without a trace in all four lineages.)
On the other hand, as I think we've covered before on here, there is a possible candidate for a front labialized velar: the palatovelar + *w clusters. Just like *k and *ḱ merge in the Centum langs, these also merge with the labiovelars in them (cleanly in each case, as far as I know). In the Satem langs this would have break into a cluster *čw. This is clearly possible though (compare *kʷ > *kw in NW Germanic), perhaps even likely. There are not many examples of labialized palatals in any languages out there. (NW Caucasian has some, but what POA doesn't it have?)

Two possible problems with this, though:
1. *ḱw is a part of the ablaut system (it alternates with *ḱu-), while *kʷ is clearly unitary: it can occur in root-final and even syllable-final position.
2. there is also some evidence for plain velar + *w clusters, which remain as *kw in the Satem langs.

The latter is very rare though. LIV has 9 examples, most of them not very good-looking. Just two of them seem to be found in three branches:
– *gwel- 'to swallow', in Armenian + Latin + Baltic. Only found as the zero grade *gul-. Traditionally *CVRR roots are not considered to have been possible. However, *u seems to act here simply as a vowel, just as it does in nominal roots (*muHs 'mouse', etc.)
– *kwath₂- 'to froth', in Germanic + Slavic + Indic. We could perhaps entertain a possibility that *ḱ-fronting was blocked for *ḱwa-?

The others are very limited in distribution:
– *gwel- 'to lay', only in Baltic + Armenian; with gv- attested only in one derivative in Lithuanian, otherwise found as the zero grade *gul-.
– *kwas- 'to kiss', only in Greek + Hittite, so possibly actually *ḱw- (and/or a loan from one into the other).
– *kweh₁p- 'to seethe', only in Balto-Slavic.
– *kweh₂- 'to acquire', only in Greek, so possibly actually *ḱw-.
– *kweyt- 'to shine', only in Balto-Slavic, and a doublet with *ḱweyt-
– *kwelp- 'to bend (intr.)', only in Germanic + Old Prussian. Loaning seems likely.
– *kwep- 'to breathe', only in Baltic.

The ablaut problem depends a lot on what we assume to have been the origin of ablaut, though. I won't start speculating just here.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Tropylium wrote:The latter is very rare though. LIV has 9 examples, most of them not very good-looking. Just two of them seem to be found in three branches:
– *gwel- 'to swallow', in Armenian + Latin + Baltic. Only found as the zero grade *gul-. Traditionally *CVRR roots are not considered to have been possible. However, *u seems to act here simply as a vowel, just as it does in nominal roots (*muHs 'mouse', etc.)
Also in *bʰuH- "become" - there's no need to reconstruct *bʰweh₂ or *bʰewH- on the strength of Skt bhavati, cf. this paper.
– *kwath₂- 'to froth', in Germanic + Slavic + Indic. We could perhaps entertain a possibility that *ḱ-fronting was blocked for *ḱwa-?
I'm not entirely sure why they posit *a for this root - there's no obvious need for it. Besides, the Slavic words probably aren't even cognate. The Slavic root is acute, which cannot be explained from *kwatH-, or even a more normal *kwetH-.
– *gwel- 'to lay', only in Baltic + Armenian; with gv- attested only in one derivative in Lithuanian, otherwise found as the zero grade *gul-.
Derksen states that there are no convincing cognates, and I can't find the Armenian word in Martirosyan, so this root may not exist.
– *kwas- 'to kiss', only in Greek + Hittite, so possibly actually *ḱw- (and/or a loan from one into the other).
Kloekhorst, following Puhvel, connects Skt śvásiti, thus indicating a front-velar.
– *kwelp- 'to bend (intr.)', only in Germanic + Old Prussian. Loaning seems likely.
Kroonen reconstructs *kʷelp- for the Germanic.

This reduces the inventory of *Kw substantially,

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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KathTheDragon wrote:
– *kwath₂- 'to froth', in Germanic + Slavic + Indic. We could perhaps entertain a possibility that *ḱ-fronting was blocked for *ḱwa-?
I'm not entirely sure why they posit *a for this root - there's no obvious need for it. Besides, the Slavic words probably aren't even cognate. The Slavic root is acute, which cannot be explained from *kwatH-, or even a more normal *kwetH-.
Good point; perhaps this is simply a misprint? They even give an *o-grade iterative *kwotHéye-!
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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It probably isn't a misprint - they seem to refer to the *a vocalism in the footnotes (but I can't read it very well, my German isn't very good).

Incidentally, there are a few arguments against taking *Ḱw clusters to reflect older labio-velars. For one, they don't occur root-finally, as opposed to *Kʷ, but also e.g. *h₂w, which is therefore a better candidate for an old labio-velar that has since decomposed. Similarly, the cluster doesn't appear root-initially before another resonant, also unlike *Kʷ. It's just possible that there is an example of *h₂w in this position, but it's very uncertain. Finally, as you already observed, the *w does become *u in the zero-grade. Conversely, there are instances of *Ḱw which have arisen from original *Ḱu - *h₁eḱwo- can be shown to have been an ablauting athematic u-stem *h₁(e)ḱu-. Its athematic nature is shown by Anatolian (cf. HLuw á-sù- and Lyc esb-) and the ablaut can be determined from Greek (ἵππος, where we have epenthesis of *i in *h₁ḱw-) vs. the rest of Indo-European (e.g. Latin equus).

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Another reason to doubt that *Ḱw clusters once were labialized front velars is that this idea begs the question why labialized front velars should have dissimilated into clusters while labialized back velars didn't. My hypothesis that the three velar series preserve pre-GVC vowel features explains the lack of labialized front velars easily by assuming that the pre-GVC stage of the language did not have front rounded vowels - a reasonable assumption as most languages don't have them (even in northern Eurasia, the only part of the world where front rounded vowels are - at least according to the WALS - not vanishingly rare, the majority of languages lack them). Sure, the likely closest relative of IE, Uralic, has *ü, but Uralic may have innovated here; Tropylium once suggested, either in a private e-mail or in a post to Nostratic-L, that Pre-Proto-Uralic may have undergone a chain shift of the sort *o > *u > *ü, which would mean that Proto-Indo-Uralic probably did not have front rounded vowels.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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WeepingElf wrote:Tropylium once suggested, either in a private e-mail or in a post to Nostratic-L, that Pre-Proto-Uralic may have undergone a chain shift of the sort *o > *u > *ü, which would mean that Proto-Indo-Uralic probably did not have front rounded vowels.
A quite interesting suggestion. May I ask what's the reasoning behind its positing? Does it have to do with the lack of *o in non-initial syllables?

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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So, there seems to be little standing in the way of interpreting *ḱ kʷ *k as /k kʷ q/ (in a three-dorsal reconstruction - in a two-dorsal reconstruction, drop *k /q/). Note also that the contrast between *Ḱw and *Kʷ needn't have lasted long. The satem dialects probably delabialised *Kʷ reasonably quickly (how quickly? More investigation is needed here) while centum dialects merged the two - or perhaps never contrasted them.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Zju wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:Tropylium once suggested, either in a private e-mail or in a post to Nostratic-L, that Pre-Proto-Uralic may have undergone a chain shift of the sort *o > *u > *ü, which would mean that Proto-Indo-Uralic probably did not have front rounded vowels.
A quite interesting suggestion. May I ask what's the reasoning behind its positing? Does it have to do with the lack of *o in non-initial syllables?
It comes from the lack of *ö. Languages that have /y/ without /ø/ are not too rare altogether, but quite often (perhaps even usually) they have ended up at that through this type of a chainshift. Ancient Greek is a textbook example; Occitan and Souletin Basque are a few other examples you might have heard of (presumably a part of the same areal change with each other and French though).

Some evidence from the later reflexes (e.g. *ü, *u both > [ɨ ~ ʉ] in Permic; *o > *å but *e > *i in Samoyedic) could suggest that this chainshift was not even quite complete by PU: *ü could have been [ʉ] rather than [y], and *o could have been [ɔ] rather than [o].
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Znex »

This may have been asked already, but why is it that the palatovelars in satemlangs have tended towards becoming sibilants as opposed to affricates? Maybe it's just me coming from a background of knowing English and some Celtlangs, but I was expecting more affricates when I was looking at satem reflexes.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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More than likely the same reason that the reflexes of palatalised Latin velars in Romance tend to be sibilants. Note that there would have been affricate intermediates.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Could be a kind of a "pull" due to the fact that PIE only had a single sibilant *s. Later palatalizations in Satem languages, where these have happened (Law of Palatals in Indo-Iranian, the First/Second/Third palatalizations in Slavic) tend to remain at affricates. Albanian is an exception (*kʷ, *gʷ >> s, z / _e), but it does also front *ḱ, *ǵ all the way to th, dh — i.e. all the way outside the sibilant system on the other side.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Yes - affricates tend to lose their stop component, especially if the corresponding fricative is not there in the language. As you say, PIE had a lone sibilant *s, so one would expect things like tʃ > ʃ.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Sorry if this has been discussed before, but does anyone have any thoughts on how the various athematic noun-classes in PIE formed?

It's pretty obvious that ablaut, at least at first, was a process begun by vowel syncope in unstressed syllables, which is most obvious in the athematic nouns where the accent shifted. The fact that e-grades and zero-grades are far more common than o-grades also bolsters this theory (then again, the most common noun, the o-stems, have so much o-grade they're named for it). This doesn't really explain the different classes of acrostatic, hysterokinetic, proterokinetic, and amphikinetic classes, though. My experience with language has taught me that nothing in languages is arbitrary, so there must be some reason for these different classes to have popped up. Perhaps the classes once had inherent meaning, now lost, but often, a particular class of nouns has a particular accent pattern, like most -i and -u nouns being proterokinetic.

I wonder if ablaut would have remained a more productive process in the IE languages if it had not been so extremely chaotic in PIE. The marked rarity of the process in natlangs cross-linguistically and the eagerness of the IE languages to throw it aside makes me wonder if ablaut is simply a grammatical process that languages shun and are loath to use, perhaps because it "violates" the idea of the root being an invariable entity.

I also can't help but wonder if the IE languages' extreme aversion towards nominal root ablaut but uneasy tolerance of verbal root ablaut (Even Sanskrit had completely bowled over root ablaut in athematic nouns) has some deeper linguistical meaning.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

In general, we can suppose a total lack of quantitative (i.e. *e ~ *Ø) ablaut, plus a distinction between *o and *e (in stressed syllables?) to account for o-grade nominatives. From there, (some? most?) unstressed vowels are reduced: certainly *e was reduced to *ə or *Ø, while the treatment of *o is less than certain - it was probably like *e pre-tonically at least. The only major deviation from this is in the o-grade suffix in amphikinetic nouns, which can be explained by early levelling of the suffix vowel from the accusative (thus following the Leiden model) which was then changed to *o by some mechanism (there are several options), and this *o was then not reduced. The nominative stem was then levelled into the accusative prior to Szemerenyi's law, and the subsequent loss of word-final *n after *ō.

Here are some sample developments to illustrate the above spiel:
"water" **wóder ~ **wo/edénes > *wódr̩ ~ *udéns
"lake" **léymens ~ **leyménem ~ **leymenés > **léymn̩s ~ **liménm̩ ~ **limnés > *léymons (> *léymō) ~ *léymonm̩ ~ *limnés

In the case of the amphikinetic ablaut, it's interesting to observe that Hittite does actually seem to attest the second stage (e.g. "hand" kessar ~ kisseran ~ kis(sa)ras), whereas the other branches exclusively attest the last.

Your observation that verbal ablaut is more readily retained (and indeed, modern English has vestigial ablaut in its verbal system) is interesting, and definitely deserving of an answer. Sadly, I don't have it.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Neek »

Chagen wrote:I also can't help but wonder if the IE languages' extreme aversion towards nominal root ablaut but uneasy tolerance of verbal root ablaut (Even Sanskrit had completely bowled over root ablaut in athematic nouns) has some deeper linguistical meaning.
Kath isn't wrong that there's a lack of answers for this question, because it deserves attention. Though were I to hazard a guess, without much to lean on, this resistance may be on how capable a class is for allowing new lexemes in. Words that have a lower barrier of entry are open classes, words that have a higher barrier of entry are closed classes. And it's more a spectrum than a binary operation.

Now, I'm willing to be told I'm wrong, but personal pronouns and prepositions are invariably closed classes. Personal pronouns tend to be far less receptive to change, as I've noticed, with first, second persons singular and interrogatives being the hardest to erode (third person pronouns tend to be adopted from deictic adjectives/pronominal groups, or otherwise formed from combinations of forms.) Social structure has also allowed newer words to enter, at least in Western European senses. Prepositions are far more resilient to entry of new lexemes.

This aversion may because nouns are more resilient to being an open class, while verbs are tend to remain a closed class. Generation of novel verbs requires derivational suffixes -- and there's a plethora of methods to be used, from causative constructions, thematic constructions (which are not as common in Ancient Greek, but rampant in Latin, even though both are sourced same), to verbalizing endings that are popularized. Once popularized forms cease being productive, new methods are made. For instance, bleach/blanch show the causative formation, but that's been cemented quite well. A Latinate adoption, -ize, is more favorable in English than the same structure that led to bleach/blanche or breath/breathe -- but there'll be a point when the -ed formation of verbs (the "weak" class, already holding the majority of verbs in Germanic languages) will cease being productive and new structures will be popularized. But there're only so many ways to form verbs from any other morphological category, and obvious structural limits (for instance, you cannot verbalize a pronoun or preposition or adverb in IE languages.)

On the other hand, nouns tend to be easier to nominalize. Just slap on noun endings, thematic endings, -t- or -n- participial forms (as well as others). Infinitives, too, are quite novel in each language in how they're formed. Even Ancient Greek can't agree on how to properly form an infinitive, suggesting that entry is pretty low. It was probably the same case in PIE, that nominalization is haphazard because nominalization is an easier process, and hence less resistant in keeping up with the ablaut.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by jmcd »

That's a good point about it being a spectrum. I get the impression that open and closed classes depends on which language one is talking about: some languages treat pronouns as easier open than others, particularly (South)East Asian ones, Malagasy as well. But maybe there's a difference between innovation and loaning on this.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Neek wrote:personal pronouns and prepositions are invariably closed classes
I think you mean "typically" instead of "invariably", as they are definitely not completely closed, not even in Western European languages. Pronouns can be borrowed (e.g. English 3rd person plural) or invented (many honourific pronouns are abbreviations of addressing formulas). Prepositions can be created from nouns directly, or shortned from compound PPs (e.g. Dutch "in de richting van" (in the direction of) ->"richting" (direction), starting to replace "naar").
This aversion may because nouns are more resilient to being an open class, while verbs are tend to remain a closed class.
It's true new nouns can borrowed when there's a word lacking, but typically they're derived from others (e.g. by compounding) when not borrowed? And depending on the type of derivational morphology a language has, forming new verbs is easy (e.g. English allowing any noun being "verbed" if there's a semantic need). Or where you talking about PIE only?


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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Chagen »

KathTheDragon wrote: Your observation that verbal ablaut is more readily retained (and indeed, modern English has vestigial ablaut in its verbal system) is interesting, and definitely deserving of an answer. Sadly, I don't have it.
I thought about this and came up with an educated guess (read: speculation pulled directly out of my ass). First of all, one of my PIE textbooks makes mention of the supposed fact that cross-linguistically verbs are prosodically weaker than other elements of the sentence. It doesn't source this claim however.

My main guess is probably more pseudo-linguistic. I can't help but notice that nouns in general are less "fluid" in meaning in languages. In contrast, verbs often have very fluid meanings in language--just look at how many meanings "work" has in English, from "do a job" to "function correctly". In addition, I've noticed that verbs often undergo drift of meaning but nouns are more resistant. PIE's nouns, for instance, often have almost identical meanings across many of the IE languages, yet its verbs often have dramatically changed meaning across the families. gʰe(n)dʰ- "sieze"'s reflexes include everything from "imagine" (Sanskrit), "begin" (English), and "grasp" (Latin). Even in English, it underlies "begin" AND "forget".

I think this has to do with the fact that verbs inherently describe actions which don't "exist" in the same way that nouns do. Yes, nouns often denote non-corporeal things, but they always refer to things. In the meanwhile, concepts like "run", "see", "grab", "fly", etc. are not actual things but descriptions of actions taken by things in reality (I'm not sure how to explain it better). The line between "tree" and "dirt" is extremely obvious--but what's the line between "run" and "walk"? The ways in which a hand-glider, a bird, a plane, and a bullet "fly" are all quite different, yet us English speakers use the same verb for them.

I've also seen that non-native speakers of English usually screw up verbs more often than nouns. They're not going to say "dog" when they're talking about a cat, but they might use a verb in the wrong way or use the wrong verb.

To go outside of PIE, the Japanese words otoko and onna mean "man" and "woman" and that's that. But while yurusu is translated as "forgive", it has such a different cultural context and depth of meaning from "forgive" that it truly can't be translated without notes/liberal rewriting. Even the most unusually complex words in a language can be translated into a phrase at worst, whereas many times fully explaining the complexity of a verb's particular meaning can take an entire paragraph of elaboration.

So perhaps verbal ablaut is more commonly retained in the IE languages because verbs are already inherent "fluid", so the fluidity of the ablaut is not as striking, whereas nouns are more "concrete" so ablaut of them is less common. This also explains why suppletion cross-linguistically is common in at least a few verbs in many languages, yet suppletion in nominal paradigms is extremely rare and almost always disposed of as soon as possible. I can't think of a single Sanskrit, Latin, or Greek noun right now that has even one suppletive form.

This might also explain why verbs cross-linguistically are inflected for far, far more categories than nouns. Nouns have case, number, definiteness and...not much else. But verbs can distinguish an incredible amount of moods, aspects, tenses, and other things like evidentiality, transitivity, voice, focus, etc. And once again, these categories are far more fluid than nominal categories. We can safely say that the Accusative in every language that has it encodes the direct object, with only a few unusual cases, and also state that the plural means 2 or more (or 3 or more if there's a dual) of the noun. But the Greek Aorist has subtle differences in meaning from the English preterite, even though both are "past tenses".

Hell, this is why we even inflect verbs for TAM. The concept of a "past" or "future" noun is nonsensical. And yes there are languages which can inflect nouns for tense, but doing inherently adds a verbal meaning regardless: "a [noun] that was a [noun]"

Of course, this is veering into pseudo-linguistics territory, and there are many things that go against this theory. For instance, adjectives are like verbs in that they describe things that don't actually "exist", but they are often nominal in many languages; granted, they often are also verbal as well, and adjectives are more commonly suppletive than nouns. Also, English and many other Germanic languages retain ablaut of nouns for encoding plurality.

Who knows. This is just what I've noticed, though I'm not very good at explaining myself.
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P

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