Questions about Welsh

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Yng
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Location: Llundain

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by Yng »

It looks to me like the diminutive -yn/en was simply extended to a singulative meaning and applied to a number of collectives, but you're right that some of these collectives appear to have originally been singular in meaning. Plant is apparently cognate with English 'plant' (how weird is that?) and was borrowed from Latin into Celtic languages. It's also the origin of Irish/Gaelic clann, which literally only means 'offspring' or 'descendants' and appears to have no singular. I don't think it was ever singular in the sense of 'child'. However, words like moch have singular cognates in Goidelic (mucc).
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar

User avatar
Jonlang
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:21 am
Location: Cymru
Contact:

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by Jonlang »

Yng wrote:It looks to me like the diminutive -yn/en was simply extended to a singulative meaning and applied to a number of collectives, but you're right that some of these collectives appear to have originally been singular in meaning. Plant is apparently cognate with English 'plant' (how weird is that?) and was borrowed from Latin into Celtic languages. It's also the origin of Irish/Gaelic clann, which literally only means 'offspring' or 'descendants' and appears to have no singular. I don't think it was ever singular in the sense of 'child'. However, words like moch have singular cognates in Goidelic (mucc).
Could the -en/-yn endings be related to un? As in "one of" the collective? I'm basically trying to figure out how to evolve such a system naturally for my conlang, it doesn't really help me with learning Welsh - learning plant/plentyn, moch/mochyn, coed/coeden etc is easy enough. Apparently coed comes from Proto-Celtic *koidos but I can't find a definition for it, so I can't tell if it was singular or a collective, but its Brythonic decendant, *koɨd apparently meant 'wood' / 'forest'.
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by linguoboy »

Jonlang wrote:Could the -en/-yn endings be related to un?
No. The presence of n in both morphs is purely coincidental.

User avatar
KathTheDragon
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2139
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
Location: Brittania

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by KathTheDragon »

Jonlang wrote:Apparently coed comes from Proto-Celtic *koidos but I can't find a definition for it, so I can't tell if it was singular or a collective, but its Brythonic decendant, *koɨd apparently meant 'wood' / 'forest'.
Matasović has *kayto- "wood" for this word, cognate to Gothic haiþi "field"

User avatar
marconatrix
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Kernow
Contact:

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by marconatrix »

In Cornish (and Breton), the -enn (f. sing.) can itself sometimes take a plural -ow where it would make semantic sense. E.g. gwels 'grass, grassland, pasture' (W. gwellt); gwelsenn 'a blade of grass'; gwelsennow '(several individual) blades of grass'. Breton : geot, geotenn, geotennoù.
Kyn nag ov den skentel pur ...

User avatar
Jonlang
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:21 am
Location: Cymru
Contact:

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by Jonlang »

I can't remember if I've asked this on this forum before, but....

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direction of somewhere that can, how the aspirate mutation evolved?
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by linguoboy »

Jonlang wrote:I can't remember if I've asked this on this forum before, but....

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direction of somewhere that can, how the aspirate mutation evolved?
Within the morphophonological mutation system proper, the spirant mutation occurs where the Brythonic maintained an “oxytonic” s (in the final, accented syllable) before an initial aspirata. For example, Brythonic treiyés 'three' ended in s and motivated spirantization which remained even after the s had disappeared, as in Welsh tre [sic] chant 'three hundred' from cant 'hundred'.
Source: http://www.fanad.net/mut01.pdf

User avatar
Jonlang
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 305
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:21 am
Location: Cymru
Contact:

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by Jonlang »

linguoboy wrote:
Jonlang wrote:I can't remember if I've asked this on this forum before, but....

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direction of somewhere that can, how the aspirate mutation evolved?
Within the morphophonological mutation system proper, the spirant mutation occurs where the Brythonic maintained an “oxytonic” s (in the final, accented syllable) before an initial aspirata. For example, Brythonic treiyés 'three' ended in s and motivated spirantization which remained even after the s had disappeared, as in Welsh tre [sic] chant 'three hundred' from cant 'hundred'.
Source: http://www.fanad.net/mut01.pdf
Diolch yn fawr!
My conlangery Twitter: @Jonlang_
Me? I'm just a lawn-mower; you can tell me by the way I walk.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Questions about Welsh

Post by linguoboy »

Jonlang wrote:Diolch yn fawr!
Mae'n bleser i wneud cymwynas.

Post Reply