Some Romance theories
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Some Romance theories
I was wondering about two sound changes which took place in Western and Eastern Romance languages. I think I may have thought up complete ways these changes went through.
We can observe a change of Latin [pɫ] and [kɫ] into [pj] and [k̟j] word-initially in Italian (and partially Romanian). What, if it could go this way: Tɫ Tʰɫ (I think it was "reported" in Roman times) Tɬ Tç Tj?
Also there's a change of Latin [kt] to [jt] in Western Romance, with many further outcomes in French, which I think could go this way: [kt] [xt] [çt] [jt].
What do you think about it? Did someone come up with it before and I only wasted some computer memory for it?
We can observe a change of Latin [pɫ] and [kɫ] into [pj] and [k̟j] word-initially in Italian (and partially Romanian). What, if it could go this way: Tɫ Tʰɫ (I think it was "reported" in Roman times) Tɬ Tç Tj?
Also there's a change of Latin [kt] to [jt] in Western Romance, with many further outcomes in French, which I think could go this way: [kt] [xt] [çt] [jt].
What do you think about it? Did someone come up with it before and I only wasted some computer memory for it?
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Re: Some Romance theories
I think [kt] [xt] [çt] [jt] is a widely accepted theory.
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Re: Some Romance theories
Ditto.mèþru wrote:I think [kt] [xt] [çt] [jt] is a widely accepted theory.
I can't see any percentage in a theory of palatalisation which posits intermediate [ɬ]. We see a whole gamut of outcomes among extant Romance varieties and AFAIK T[ɬ] is attested in not a single one of them. What we do see, however, is C/l/ > C[ʎ] in some of the same varieties which have /lː/ > [ʎ] (e.g. Argonese, Leonese). I think that makes the development pretty clear, at least for Western Romance. (Leonese also has /lt/ > [jt], parallel to /ct/ > [jt], incidentally.)
If initial aspiration was present in Roman times, how has it ended up being "lost" in virtually all modern descendants?
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Re: Some Romance theories
Well, I've seen in the Wikipedia article about Latin phonology that the voiceless stops were aspirated when followed by /l/ or /r/ with evidence in spelling some native words. I meant this single allophony by Tɫ Tʰɫ.linguoboy wrote:If initial aspiration was present in Roman times, how has it ended up being "lost" in virtually all modern descendants?
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Re: Some Romance theories
I would write it as Tɫ = [Tʰɫ] instead, to make it obvious it's not a diachronic change.
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Re: Some Romance theories
Ok, so, regarding it, is my theory acceptable?KathTheDragon wrote:I would write it as Tɫ = [Tʰɫ] instead, to make it obvious it's not a diachronic change.
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Re: Some Romance theories
Probably not, no. The Latin lateral was probably not velarized in this position, at least in the dialects ancestral to languages with Cl > Cʎ/Cj. In languages with a palatalized/velarized lateral contrast, 'normal' laterals are likely to be reinterpreted as palatalized - e.g. Karl 'Charlemagne' > Proto-Slavic *kõrljь 'king'. (o = short a; this could just as well be written *kărljĭ. it carries the long neoacute accent because VR syllables were treated as long and also other reasons, PS accentuation is complicated)ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:Latin [pɫ] and [kɫ]
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Re: Some Romance theories
I found some sources that described Latin as having "dark l" or "intermediate l" after consonants (in contrast with "light l" in the geminate /ll/ or before /i/), but they seemed to be based on early evidence, like the epenthetic /u/ that developed before /l/ in words like stabulum. I don't know of any evidence that Proto-Romance had dark l after consonants. Do any Romance languages have developments like Cl > Cw?
As Nort says, it seems simpler to suppose that /j/ is a development from /ʎ/, since this kind of de-lateralization is well-attested as a sound change in the relevant areas, and as linguoboy says some languages in Spain show Cl > ʎ or lC > jC.
[kt] [xt] [çt] [jt] looks basically plausible and, as other people have said, usual, although I'm not sure if there is any real certainty about the order of fronting vs. voicing/lenition. According to Wikipedia, in Modern Spanish, words like "obtener" and "optimista" may be pronounced with [βt], with a voiced lenited sound preceding the following stop. Considering that voicing and lenition of Latin singleton /k/ > [ɣ] is also attested intervocalically, it also seems plausible to me to suppose something like [kt] [xt] [ɣt] [jt].
As Nort says, it seems simpler to suppose that /j/ is a development from /ʎ/, since this kind of de-lateralization is well-attested as a sound change in the relevant areas, and as linguoboy says some languages in Spain show Cl > ʎ or lC > jC.
[kt] [xt] [çt] [jt] looks basically plausible and, as other people have said, usual, although I'm not sure if there is any real certainty about the order of fronting vs. voicing/lenition. According to Wikipedia, in Modern Spanish, words like "obtener" and "optimista" may be pronounced with [βt], with a voiced lenited sound preceding the following stop. Considering that voicing and lenition of Latin singleton /k/ > [ɣ] is also attested intervocalically, it also seems plausible to me to suppose something like [kt] [xt] [ɣt] [jt].
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Re: Some Romance theories
Ok, the more I know. Thanks for remark.
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Re: Some Romance theories
Spanish is a dialect of Amdo Tibetan. Few can admit this!Sumelic wrote:[kt] [xt] [çt] [jt] looks basically plausible and, as other people have said, usual, although I'm not sure if there is any real certainty about the order of fronting vs. voicing/lenition. According to Wikipedia, in Modern Spanish, words like "obtener" and "optimista" may be pronounced with [βt], with a voiced lenited sound preceding the following stop. Considering that voicing and lenition of Latin singleton /k/ > [ɣ] is also attested intervocalically, it also seems plausible to me to suppose something like [kt] [xt] [ɣt] [jt].
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.