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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:25 am 
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eighths [ɛɪ̯ʔθs]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:18 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Crusoe?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:55 pm 
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/ˈkruːsəʊ/ [ˈkʰɹ̥ʉːsɐʉ̯]

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:40 pm 
Šriftom
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[ˌkʰʁuˈso(ː)]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:01 pm 
Lebom
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Malayalam
Also, what do people without FOOT-STRUT distinction have in such borrowed words as curry?
Do they just not talk about these things?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:38 pm 
Lebom
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
Also, what do people without FOOT-STRUT distinction have in such borrowed words as curry?
Do they just not talk about these things?

Non-native speaker here, but pretty sure it's STRUT.

Actually, the word comes from the Tamil word kari. Several loanwords from India originally had an [a] sound, and were borrowed with the vowel of STRUT, such as jungle (in Sanskrit jangala) and musth (originally mast, though I'm not sure from which language exactly).

If other languages use an [u]-like sound in curry (e.g. French which has [y]), this comes directly from the English orthography.

For other words, it varies. Buddha usually has FOOT. So does Muslim, but I've heard it with STRUT.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:56 pm 
Smeric
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Ryusenshi wrote:
For other words, it varies. Buddha usually has FOOT. So does Muslim, but I've heard it with STRUT.

I've never heard Buddha with any vowel but /u/; I've heard Muslim with /ʊ ɔ/ but most frequently (in America) with /ʌ/. (Note the slashes: these are all broad transcriptions.)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:04 pm 
Smeric
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
Malayalam

Lol!

In English: [məleˈjɑləm]
In Malayalam: [məleˈjaːɭəm]


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:24 pm 
Avisaru
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
Malayalam
Also, what do people without FOOT-STRUT distinction have in such borrowed words as curry?
Do they just not talk about these things?


Like an accent from "oop North" in England? I think many people in such areas have, through exposure to more southern accents, acquired some approximation of STRUT that they use in certain words. They just don't necessarily know the "correct" distribution of the sounds, because of the non-indicative spelling and the lack of the distinction in their natively inherited vocabulary. So while some people might use /ʊ/, I don't know if you would see any consistency. I believe there are jokes I don't know how accurate they are) about speakers hypercorrecting. I'm not particularly familar with this kind of accent, though, so I can't say much about it


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:57 pm 
Smeric
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Zaarin wrote:
Ryusenshi wrote:
For other words, it varies. Buddha usually has FOOT. So does Muslim, but I've heard it with STRUT.

I've never heard Buddha with any vowel but /u/

I might say [bʊd̪ˈd̪ʱa]. In Hindi, it has [ʊ], not [u].


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:58 pm 
Lebom
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@ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪
Sorry, I misread your question. I'm not sure how people from Northern England (or Ireland) pronounce these words. As Sumelic said, some speakers use a vowel similar to schwa in those words. Actually, some "educated" speakers in Northern England inconsistently use a schwa in native STRUT words, and John Wells has reported instances of hypercorrection (schwa in FOOT words). But speakers with "broad" accents probably use [ʊ] in curry (as do foreigners who borrowed curry from English).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:02 pm 
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
Malayalam
Also, what do people without FOOT-STRUT distinction have in such borrowed words as curry?
Do they just not talk about these things?

... well, it's a STRUT vowel, so those without a FOOT-STRUT distinction just use /ʊ/, which is their vowel for both. Don't ask it to make sense, it's been a loanword for well over a couple of centuries! furthermore, most Americans use a NURSE vowel here - /kɚːri/ or thereabouts - due to r-colouring.

oh yeah the hypercorrection really bothers me sometimes - i was listening to an audiobook by Yahtzee Croshaw, who's from Birmingham, and doesn't have this distinction natively, so he keeps using a schwa or ʌ in FOOT words. every time he does it grates on my soul a little bit.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:18 pm 
Sumerul
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Zaarin wrote:
I've never heard Buddha with any vowel but /u/
That sounds distinctly American to me. It's with /ʊ/ for Australians ... and I think Brits too. Muslim is also with /ʊ/ for me ... if it's with /ɒ/ then surely that's the old fashioned word "Moslem" and not just a pronunciation variation of "Muslim", no? (With /ɔː/ would be "Mawslem" but if you're cot-caught merged, I guess it's a moot point ...) Pronouncing it with /ʌ/ makes sense from the spelling but it's also another thing that I think I've only heard from Americans.

I saw at some point a rough rule that a "short u" tends to be pronounced as /ʊ/ a bit more often after /p/ and /b/ (put, butcher, bull, pull, push) and /ʌ/ is the normal pronunciation elsewhere. I never really figured out a rough rule of thumb for figuring out if <oo> is more likely to be /ʊ/ or /uː/ in closed syllables.

A lot of people pronounce "Punjabi" with /ʊ/ because, I guess, there seems to be this idea that <u> is /ʊ/ or /uː/ in foreign words (cf. Beizhing) ... but in Australian English, we pronounce /ʌ/ as something like [ä], so we'd be getting it pretty close if we stick to the pronunciation that that spelling was intended to evoke. After arriving in Germany, I had to learn to pronounce "Curry" as "Körri" and not "Karri", which is funny because it's not really an English spelling pronounciation like the French pronunciation is ... but more of a distortion trying to get close to the English /ʌ/ sound in a lot of dialects ... so I have to take on this pronunciation to bring it further away from my own English pronunciation and further away from the original (Hindi?) pronunciation

And for people who have no FOOT-STRUT distinction, I'm assuming the answer as to how they pronounce curry is "Yes! With both of them." Damn ... ninjaed.

Yeah, Finlay, I had an Irish colleague with a very strong regional farmy-soundy dialect (including "ye" for plural "you") teaching English who suddenly got confused when learning to teach with IPA and had no idea which words had /ʌ/ and which had /ʊ/. The only trouble I had teaching from RP-based teaching materials is not knowing which unstressed vowels written <e> or <i> are /ɪ/ and which are /ə/ because I barely distinguish them ... and once I realised some people say "wantid" and "needid" ... I couldn't unhear it and it bothers me every time, haha.

Malayalam ... I don't know if I've ever said it out loud but pronouncing it in my head is:
/məˈleɪ.ələm/ or /məˈleɪ.əˌlæːm/ (standard RP transcription plus extra Australian distinctions)
[məˈlæɪ̯jələm] or [məˈlæɪ̯jəˌlæːm] (actual imagined pronunciation)
... probably the second variant. The first one sounds somehow British to me, like pronouncing "somebody" with a schwa in the second syllable ... which is weird, because I don't usually like to pass up the chance to get some schwa action. So, basically, I'd say "Malay a lamb"

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:53 pm 
Smeric
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Imralu wrote:
Zaarin wrote:
I've never heard Buddha with any vowel but /u/
That sounds distinctly American to me. It's with /ʊ/ for Australians ... and I think Brits too. Muslim is also with /ʊ/ for me ... if it's with /ɒ/ then surely that's the old fashioned word "Moslem" and not just a pronunciation variation of "Muslim", no? (With /ɔː/ would be "Mawslem" but if you're cot-caught merged, I guess it's a moot point ...) Pronouncing it with /ʌ/ makes sense from the spelling but it's also another thing that I think I've only heard from Americans.

Well, I am an American, so... :p And yes, by /ɒ/ I meant Moslem, but I still hear people use it occasionally, even in the media. Incidentally, Americans tend to voice the /s/ to /z/, too, even though /sl/ is a perfectly legal cluster in English...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:18 am 
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Just re-iterating that /u/ in Buddha and /V/ in Muslim sound extremely American. Like saying /aI"r{k/ or /aI"r{n/..
[also schwa in the second syllable of 'Muslim', although that's a general American merger thing]

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:34 am 
Smeric
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Salmoneus wrote:
Just re-iterating that /u/ in Buddha and /V/ in Muslim sound extremely American. Like saying /aI"r{k/ or /aI"r{n/..

True, but I at least have [ɪˈɹ̠ˁɑk] and [ɪˈɹ̠ˁɑn]. :p

Quote:
[also schwa in the second syllable of 'Muslim', although that's a general American merger thing]

Hmm, I think I actually have /ɪ/ there; schwa would tend to merge with the /m/ to form a syllabic nasal.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:49 pm 
Sumerul
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Salmoneus wrote:
Just re-iterating that /u/ in Buddha and /V/ in Muslim sound extremely American. Like saying /aI"r{k/ or /aI"r{n/..
[also schwa in the second syllable of 'Muslim', although that's a general American merger thing]

I also have a schwa there. Unstressed syllables (unless final and open) have an almost entirely predictable distribution for me (and I think most Australians) ... /I/ is found before velar and alveolo-palatal consonants (including affricates) and schwa elsewhere ... that's at least how I conceptualise them, but how I actually pronounce them ... I'm not sure. There may actually be no distinction at all. "Bullock" is the only exception I can think of ... it has a schwa in the second syllable ... at least conceptually, but I'm not sure if I pronounce it any differently from, say, "classic". (Word finally, the only unstressed vowels are schwa, which lowers a lot, and /i/ but they are, of course, distinct.)

tl;dr I say [ˈmʊzɫəm]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Quote:
(Word finally, the only unstressed vowels are schwa, which lowers a lot, and /i/ but they are, of course, distinct.)

What about the “potato” vowel?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:36 pm 
Sanno
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Zaarin wrote:
Ryusenshi wrote:
For other words, it varies. Buddha usually has FOOT. So does Muslim, but I've heard it with STRUT.

I've never heard Buddha with any vowel but /u/; I've heard Muslim with /ʊ ɔ/ but most frequently (in America) with /ʌ/. (Note the slashes: these are all broad transcriptions.)

My native pronunciations are with /uː/ and /ʌ/. After some time in academia, however, I switched to the prestige pronunciations with /u/ (i.e. [ʊ]).

Malayalam with /eː/ is new to me. I've always said it /ˌmaləˈjaləm/, which Wiktionary gives as the US pronunciation. That's how I learned to say it from a Malayalee friend and I don't recall hearing anything different.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:42 pm 
Smeric
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I use [e] (definitely NOT [eː]) in the second syllable only because Malayalam phonology works that way. /a/ > [e] / C_ja

Phonemically, it's still /a/ in Malayalam: /malajaːɭam/ [məleˈjaːɭəm].


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:52 pm 
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I tend to use /u/ rather than /ʊ/ in foreign words where it is not loaned as STRUT because native /ʊ/ is too central; e.g. when pronouncing German words with /ʊ/.

About, Iraq and Iran, I have both [ɪːˈʁɑʔk] and [ɪːˈʁɑ̃(ː)n] and [əe̯ˈʁɛʔk] and [əe̯ˈʁɛ̃(ː)n], and I get the impression that the former are more "educated" than the latter. When I think about how I am talking I use the former, but when I don't I use the latter.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:53 pm 
Avisaru
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Travis B. wrote:
I tend to use /u/ rather than /ʊ/ in foreign words where it is not loaned as STRUT because native /ʊ/ is too central; e.g. when pronouncing German words with /ʊ/.

About, Iraq and Iran, I have both [ɪːˈʁɑʔk] and [ɪːˈʁɑ̃(ː)n] and [əe̯ˈʁɛʔk] and [əe̯ˈʁɛ̃(ː)n], and I get the impression that the former are more "educated" than the latter. When I think about how I am talking I use the former, but when I don't I use the latter.


I feel about the same about these words. I don't really natively have /ɪr/ (due to "Sirius"-set words merging with "serious") so the pronunciations with /ɪr/ are a bit conscious for me, although not particularly hard to remember. I'd say it's a little bit more natural than /ur/ in "tour" or "boor", which I also use sporadically.

I agree also about the unintuitiveness of using English FOOT for German /ʊ/; my FOOT is probably closer to /œ/. (Actually, I've never gotten comfortable with hearing/producing the quality distinction between real /u/ and /ʊ/. This has affected my conlanging in that when I do long-short systems with lax and tense qualities, I have a tendency to use an 8-vowel system /ɑ aː ɛ eː ɪ iː o uː/ rather than a 10-vowel system with /ɔ oː ʊ uː/).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:42 am 
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Pole, the wrote:
Quote:
(Word finally, the only unstressed vowels are schwa, which lowers a lot, and /i/ but they are, of course, distinct.)

What about the “potato” vowel?

Diphthongs are a typical exemption from vowel reduction in English.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:28 am 
Sanno
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Znex wrote:
Pole, the wrote:
Quote:
(Word finally, the only unstressed vowels are schwa, which lowers a lot, and /i/ but they are, of course, distinct.)

What about the “potato” vowel?

Diphthongs are a typical exemption from vowel reduction in English.

But note dialectal "tater" (probably reflecting rhotacisation of /ə/).


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