Scandinavian (Now with more isoglosses)

[Aszev]

- Swedish
-- Dalecarlian Proper
--- Upper Dalecarlian
---- Elfdalian


Actually a split between Dalecarlian and Swedish here wouldn't be too unreasonable. Alternatively one could possibly also enlarge it, and include the East Swedish varieties as well.

[Radagast]

Jutlandic is called jutish. And I am uncertain whether the Danish varieties don't need more subdialects. North jutish and south jutish are pretty different. And mid jutish is pretty close to insular danish. Within insular danish there is a big split between Zealandic and the rest of the islands. (zealand has stød most of the insular dialects haven't) Also there is borholmian which isn't quite as close to eats danish as the map would make it seem.

[Beli Orao]

Actually a split between Dalecarlian and Swedish here wouldn't be too unreasonable. Alternatively one could possibly also enlarge it, and include the East Swedish varieties as well.

Elfdalian isn't a Swedish dialect.

[Aszev]

Jutlandic is called jutish. And I am uncertain whether the Danish varieties don't need more subdialects. North jutish and south jutish are pretty different. And mid jutish is pretty close to insular danish. Within insular danish there is a big split between Zealandic and the rest of the islands. (zealand has stød most of the insular dialects haven't) Also there is borholmian which isn't quite as close to eats danish as the map would make it seem.

Danish is actually the language whose varieties I know the least about, sadly (except for the ones spoken in Sweden), so I'm unable to go deeper on this. I've mostly gone with general convensions for Danish here, except for using the South Mainland category for it. As for Jutish and Insular Danish I'll have to read up on them. As for Bornholmian I was under the impression that it was pretty similar to the other East Danish varietes, but I should of course try to verify that as well.

[Aszev]

Actually a split between Dalecarlian and Swedish here wouldn't be too unreasonable. Alternatively one could possibly also enlarge it, and include the East Swedish varieties as well.

Elfdalian isn't a Swedish dialect.

Where did I say it was? I don't think I've used the word "dialect" in this thread at all, which was kinda the point. Also note that Swedish in this case equals Svealandic, and not Standard Swedish.

[rickardspaghetti]

Could you call Elfdalian a separate language?

[zelos]

this map is soooo wrong

[rickardspaghetti]

What is wrong with it?

[zelos]

What is wrong with it?

for starters the part in south of sweden isnt dannish but swedish, it is a severely distorted form of it but it is by far easier for swedish to understand than any form of danish

[Io]

Shouldn't Spitsbergen be also included or polar bears can't talk either?

[Åge Kruger]

Shouldn't Spitsbergen be also included or polar bears can't talk either?

There is no Svalbard dialect, since the archipelago has had no population one could call native until very very very recently.

[Xonen]

Gammalsvenskby was actually founded by Swedes who were effectively deported from Estonia by Catherine the Great

Yeah, I knew that. My Google works just fine (and the post you were quoting was not intended to be taken entirely seriously).

What is wrong with it?

for starters the part in south of sweden isnt dannish but swedish, it is a severely distorted form of it but it is by far easier for swedish to understand than any form of danish

You're missing the point. This isn't about how easy it is for you to understand a present-day speaker from Oslo or Malmö, it's about the historical relationships between the varieties (traditionally) spoken in the areas concerned.

Of course, if you had actually read Aszev's post instead of just looking at the map, you would've known this already.

[rickardspaghetti]

I'd like to see another map like this, but with the Finnic family instead.

[Aszev]

Could you call Elfdalian a separate language?

You could, and nowadays a lot of people do. But, it's very important not to stare oneself blind at the fact that there is this batshit conservative language in the middle of nowhere in Scandinavia. I will not call it a language in the context of my map (just as I won't call anything else a language here), because Elfdalian isn't isolate-ish unique, it has a historical context, like most other varieties.

For example,

The inclusion of Dalecarlian within Sveamål can again be ascribed to the strong focus on archaism in traditional linguistics. Synchronically, taking into account the Dalecarlian innovations on the one hand, and the growing Swedish influence on the other dialects on the other, I am of the opinion that Dalecarlian can be classified as a separate dialect group, where Elfdalian constitutes its most distinctive member. Combining this argument with sociolinguistic arguments, Elfdalian can be regarded as a separate language.

Elfdalian belongs to the Upper Dalecarlian (Sw. Ovansiljanmål) varieties, of the Proper Dalecarlian group (Sw. Egentliga Dalmål). Within Upper Dalecarlian there is still a certain degree of mutual intelligibility, and several of the unique characteristics found in Elfdalian are also found in other Upper Dalecarlian varieties, and to a lesser extent in the other Proper Dalecarlian varieties too. Elfdalian is of course still notable because it is the most conservative of them all, and in a way you could probably call it the end point of the continuum in this area.

[Aszev]

this map is soooo wrong

Could you provide any other reason as to why the map is "soooo wrong", besides the claim that Scanian is Swedish (which historically is incorrect)?

[Aszev]

This is either semi-related or not related at all, but as it concerns Scandinavian I thought I'd stick to one thread.

Anyways, after a long night I finished my short page on the differences between the Old Norse dialect groups (mainly between Old West and Old East Norse). Comments, thoughts and feedback are always appreciated.

It's available here:
SVENSKA
ENGLISH

[Xonen]

Anyways, after a long night I finished my short page on the differences between the Old Norse dialect groups (mainly between Old West and Old East Norse). Comments, thoughts and feedback are always appreciated.

Make it longer.

Seriously, it's good as it is; thanks for presenting it. Personally, though, I think the various regularities and irregularities in sound correspondences (especially regarding vowels) between the modern Scandinavian languages could be highly interesting. Of course, I'm assuming you have nothing better to do for the next two years or so.

[Agricola Avicula]

I myself have also tried to make a map of the Scandinavian dialects, but I wanted to do it in much more detail. I stopped when I learned that almost every parish in Norway and Sweden has its own dialect variety. But if you're interested I can post the map as far as I have it.

Sure.

Here it is (click for larger). As I said, it is not finished, and since I got all my information from Google, it will be far from accurate. And I know, the colors are awful and make it undecipherable, but this is what I have. Don't worry about Kirunamål and Vilhelminamål: I think these are actually transported nybyggar-dialects, right?

Nice map! I think it's pretty accurate. One comment: the classification of the languages/dialects spoken around Älvdalen, Sweden (in the northeastern corner of the area you painted dark green) is heavily disputed. Some (Swedish) linguists have classified it as a form of Svealandic, others consider it a separate language, in between East- and West-Norse. But I have never seen it classified with the Østland varieties.

It isn't. The part you're confusing for Älvdalen is in face the two parishes Särna and Idre. Älvdalen is to the south east, within the Swedish area.

Sorry, my bad. Still, I've got Idre-Särnamål classified within Trøndersk, since I thought it was close to Härjedalska.

[rickardspaghetti]

This is either semi-related or not related at all, but as it concerns Scandinavian I thought I'd stick to one thread.

Anyways, after a long night I finished my short page on the differences between the Old Norse dialect groups (mainly between Old West and Old East Norse). Comments, thoughts and feedback are always appreciated.

It's available here:
SVENSKA
ENGLISH

Ooh!:o Nice maps! And a nice new avatar too! Go Aszev!

[Aszev]

Here it is (click for larger). As I said, it is not finished, and since I got all my information from Google, it will be far from accurate. And I know, the colors are awful and make it undecipherable, but this is what I have.

I think it's a good map, but some classifications could be debated. Also I think it's slightly too in depth for a map on that scale

Don't worry about Kirunamål and Vilhelminamål: I think these are actually transported nybyggar-dialects, right?

Yep.

Sorry, my bad. Still, I've got Idre-Särnamål classified within Trøndersk, since I thought it was close to Härjedalska.

Afaik, Särna-Idremål is closest to the varietes spoken in Hedmark on the other side of the border. This doesn't mean that it doesn't share features with härjedalska. After all, Østlandsk and Trøndersk are not all too distant on a larger scale.

[Qwynegold]

This is either semi-related or not related at all, but as it concerns Scandinavian I thought I'd stick to one thread.

Anyways, after a long night I finished my short page on the differences between the Old Norse dialect groups (mainly between Old West and Old East Norse). Comments, thoughts and feedback are always appreciated.

It's available here:
SVENSKA
ENGLISH

Just out of curiosity: Why do you use the Danish/Norwegian og?

[Aszev]

Just out of curiosity: Why do you use the Danish/Norwegian og?

I profoundly loathe Standard Swedish, and its spelling. I haven't completed any of my ideas for a spelling reform, but I occasionally slip in some reformatory ideas in my writing. og is actually the only thing I use consistently, unless I'm writing something that needs to be written in formal language, or when I'm chatting with people whom I wouldn't really wanna discuss Swedish spelling with anyway. Some year ago I wrote a small page on the word 'och' (in Swedish). My former sig, Ø > k / o_#, referred to this word as well.

[Aszev]

What's spoken at the northern tip of Sw?

Sami?


JAL

The Swedish spoken there is mainly transplanted dialects from other parts of Norrland, but no dialects really are 'native' there, except for dialects of Finnish and Sami - and probably the number of Finnish speakers always has been higher than that of Sami speakers there.

Commenting on this, I can't say for sure how the relative populations have been, but I can provide another map :>



The smaller dots refer to Sami (Lappish) and the larger ones to Finnish.

[Xonen]

Just out of curiosity: Why do you use the Danish/Norwegian og?

I profoundly loathe Standard Swedish, and its spelling. I haven't completed any of my ideas for a spelling reform, but I occasionally slip in some reformatory ideas in my writing. og is actually the only thing I use consistently, unless I'm writing something that needs to be written in formal language, or when I'm chatting with people whom I wouldn't really wanna discuss Swedish spelling with anyway. Some year ago I wrote a small page on the word 'och' (in Swedish).

Wow. And I thought I obsess about stuff too much.

My former sig, Ø > k / o_#, referred to this word as well.

Speaking of that, you don't actually think Swedish has a monopoly on irrational spelling pronunciations, do you? Not that I won't be your loyal servant when the time comes to take over Scandinavia and implement our rational happy unified spelling system.

[rickardspaghetti]

If we can abolish Scania, I'm game.