Mass vs. count

[dhok]

In some languages one major noun distinction is masculine vs. feminine, in some it's animate vs. inanimate, and in some it's mass vs. count. My question is: gender and animacy often trigger agreement, whether on the verb or on adjectives. Does anybody know of a natlang where whether a noun is mass or count triggers agreement?

[Miekko]

In some languages one major noun distinction is masculine vs. feminine, in some it's animate vs. inanimate, and in some it's mass vs. count. My question is: gender and animacy often trigger agreement, whether on the verb or on adjectives. Does anybody know of a natlang where whether a noun is mass or count triggers agreement?

yes, in English, mass nouns have a zero indefinite article whereas count nouns have 'a' or 'an'.

[zelos]

what meikko said

but usually all languages as i understand it have mass/count nouns

[Salmoneus]

In some languages one major noun distinction is masculine vs. feminine, in some it's animate vs. inanimate, and in some it's mass vs. count. My question is: gender and animacy often trigger agreement, whether on the verb or on adjectives. Does anybody know of a natlang where whether a noun is mass or count triggers agreement?

yes, in English, mass nouns have a zero indefinite article whereas count nouns have 'a' or 'an'.

Also, mass nouns take "much" and "less", while count nouns take "many" and "fewer". Although the less/fewer distinction is fading in some dialects, I've never heard anybody say "I don't have much apples" or "I don't have many water".

[dhok]

In some languages one major noun distinction is masculine vs. feminine, in some it's animate vs. inanimate, and in some it's mass vs. count. My question is: gender and animacy often trigger agreement, whether on the verb or on adjectives. Does anybody know of a natlang where whether a noun is mass or count triggers agreement?

yes, in English, mass nouns have a zero indefinite article whereas count nouns have 'a' or 'an'.

Also, mass nouns take "much" and "less", while count nouns take "many" and "fewer". Although the less/fewer distinction is fading in some dialects, I've never heard anybody say "I don't have much apples" or "I don't have many water".

Well, yeah, but that's more like a classifier system...I'm not saying that's not agreement, but I was thinking more complex systems of agreement like verbs and adjectives.

[alice]

Martin Maiden says of some south Italian dialects:

Determiners modifying masculine count nouns are, or were initially, characterized by the inflectional vowel -u. The determiners of mass nouns have or had inflectional -o.

for example, in Umbria, lu ferru "the (iron) tool", lo ferro "iron".

[linguoboy]

Martin Maiden says of some south Italian dialects:

Determiners modifying masculine count nouns are, or were initially, characterized by the inflectional vowel -u. The determiners of mass nouns have or had inflectional -o.

for example, in Umbria, lu ferru "the (iron) tool", lo ferro "iron".

IIRC, this is true of some Cantabrian dialects as well. Even Castilian varieties have some peculiarities which can be explained by mass/count agreement, e.g. la lana lo venden "They sell wool" (i.e. "neuter" lo used to refer to a feminine mass-noun).

[TzirTzi]

In some languages one major noun distinction is masculine vs. feminine, in some it's animate vs. inanimate, and in some it's mass vs. count. My question is: gender and animacy often trigger agreement, whether on the verb or on adjectives. Does anybody know of a natlang where whether a noun is mass or count triggers agreement?

yes, in English, mass nouns have a zero indefinite article whereas count nouns have 'a' or 'an'.

Also, mass nouns take "much" and "less", while count nouns take "many" and "fewer". Although the less/fewer distinction is fading in some dialects, I've never heard anybody say "I don't have much apples" or "I don't have many water".

Well, yeah, but that's more like a classifier system...I'm not saying that's not agreement, but I was thinking more complex systems of agreement like verbs and adjectives.

Look up the definition of "classifier system" - that's what gender is, a noun classifier system. But as other people have said, the answer is yes: languages can feature agreement with nouns for count vs. mass (or vs. other classes to do with number).

[Ser]

Also, mass nouns take "much" and "less", while count nouns take "many" and "fewer". Although the less/fewer distinction is fading in some dialects, I've never heard anybody say "I don't have much apples" or "I don't have many water".

I saw a friend of mine doing just that yesterday...

Even Castilian varieties have some peculiarities which can be explained by mass/count agreement, e.g. la lana lo venden "They sell wool" (i.e. "neuter" lo used to refer to a feminine mass-noun).

Interesting. Do you happen to know what region(s) of Spain that occurs in?

[Magb]

Apparently some West Jutlandic (Danish) dialects have completely turned the gender system into a mass vs. count agreement system.

[Åge Kruger]

Apparently some West Jutlandic (Danish) dialects have completely turned the gender system into a mass vs. count agreement system.

Indeed. Mass nouns take the neuter, and count nouns take the common. So you have den adj. barn and det adj. melk, etc.

[Bedelato]

Also in (Standard) English, mass nouns can't be plural:

Look at those things.
*Look at those stuff.

Things are good.
*Stuff are good.

And so on.

That said, the line in English between mass and count nouns can be fuzzy in some spots. Example: The word "data" seems to be making the switch from count to mass right now. To me, using /deitə/ with a singular verb is natural. Prescriptivists beware

Some nouns in English (e.g. "food", "water", "money") can be used as both mass and count, albeit with different meanings; when used as count nouns, they refer to things like different kinds of food, different bodies of water, different national currencies, and so on. These different meanings are IMO separate lexical items. (There I go using netspeak again... WHAT THE ____ IS WRONG WITH ME!? )

[Richard W]

Some nouns in English (e.g. "food", "water", "money") can be used as both mass and count, albeit with different meanings; when used as count nouns, they refer to things like different kinds of food, different bodies of water, different national currencies, and so on.

I thought that was a general principle, rather than a peculiarity of individual words.

There's also the conversion the other way, from count noun to mass noun for food. I think it only works when one is no longer consuming entire, discrete individuals - fruit provides good examples.

[Bedelato]

Some nouns in English (e.g. "food", "water", "money") can be used as both mass and count, albeit with different meanings; when used as count nouns, they refer to things like different kinds of food, different bodies of water, different national currencies, and so on.

I thought that was a general principle, rather than a peculiarity of individual words.

There's also the conversion the other way, from count noun to mass noun for food. I think it only works when one is no longer consuming entire, discrete individuals - fruit provides good examples.

You might be right about the mass > count conversion; it's probably more general than I gave it credit for.

But just like all methods of derivation, it's not universal; I can't use "datas" to mean "different types of data", and I can't use "musics" to mean "different kinds of music". Other exceptions are "merchandise" (*This store has more merchandises than that one), "work" (in the sense of "employment"), "math" (British "maths" is an independent innovation AFAIK, and regardless it's still semantically collective).