Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
I have a few questions:
1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
2. It appears to me that /y/ does not occur as a final vowel - is this so, and why?
3. Does /n/ regularly disappear before /s/?
4. What are the sandhi rules (in phonological and spelling terms)? I know, for instance, that /np nk/ becomes [mp Nk], spelt /mp gk/. What about combinations such as /pm tm km pn tn kn/ etc.?
1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
2. It appears to me that /y/ does not occur as a final vowel - is this so, and why?
3. Does /n/ regularly disappear before /s/?
4. What are the sandhi rules (in phonological and spelling terms)? I know, for instance, that /np nk/ becomes [mp Nk], spelt /mp gk/. What about combinations such as /pm tm km pn tn kn/ etc.?
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Re: Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
πολύ, δόρυ, ἄστυZhen Lin wrote:2. It appears to me that /y/ does not occur as a final vowel - is this so, and why?
So take this body at sunset to the great stream whose pulses start in the blue hills, and let these ashes drift from the Long Bridge where only a late gull breaks that deep and populous grave.
Re: Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
Everywhere except after /e i r/.Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
Yes, and I think it lengthens the preceding vowel.Zhen Lin wrote:Does /n/ regularly disappear before /s/?
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.
Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.) My (very poor) understanding of Ancient Greek plosives (disregarding the various flavors of velar, they're not important for this) is:
PIE /p t k/>/p t k/
PIE /b d g/ >/b d g/
PIE /bh dh gh/ >/ph th kh/
but PIE was exceptionally rare in /b/, while it's quite common in Ancient Greek.
PIE /p t k/>/p t k/
PIE /b d g/ >/b d g/
PIE /bh dh gh/ >/ph th kh/
but PIE was exceptionally rare in /b/, while it's quite common in Ancient Greek.
Last edited by dhok on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Huh?!? Is that a weird reference to 4chan's /b/?!Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)
A lot of /b/s in Greek came from mp > mb > b, but no idea about the word initial and others.
<King> Ivo, you phrase things in the most comedic manner
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
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That's Modern Greek. Daquarious asked about Ancient Greek.Io wrote:Huh?!? Is that a weird reference to 4chan's /b/?!Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)
A lot of /b/s in Greek came from mp > mb > b, but no idea about the word initial and others.
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Aha! A long-standing mystery about PIE is solved! It was in front of us all the time - they didn't have 4chan back then!Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)
Well, /gw/ often became /b/, typically before /a/ and /o/.Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:My (very poor) understanding of Ancient Greek plosives (disregarding the various flavors of velar, they're not important for this) is:
PIE /p t k/>/p t k/
PIE /b d g/ >/b d g/
PIE /bh dh gh/ >/ph th kh/
but PIE was exceptionally rare in /b/, while it's quite common in Ancient Greek.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.
Re: Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?bricka wrote:Everywhere except after /e i r/.Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)
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Re: Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
Actually, I thought that change happened only to /aː/ and not to /a/, though I might be wrong.Zhen Lin wrote:That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?bricka wrote:Everywhere except after /e i r/.Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)
Re: Ancient Greek phonology / diachronics
You're quite right; I don't know about short /a/.TheGoatMan wrote:Actually, I thought that change happened only to /aː/ and not to /a/, though I might be wrong.Zhen Lin wrote:That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?bricka wrote:Everywhere except after /e i r/.Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?
(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.
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