же

[Beli Orao]

How is this word used in Russian? I don't know of any South Slavic equivalents, at least not used in the modern language, it looks like a cognate of the ђе in такође.

[Gray Richardson]

I use it in the sense of "then", as in "What then should we do?" or "Who then gave you the book?"

Check out this link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B6%D0%B5

It indicates that the word imparts emphasis to the word it follows, which sounds right to me.

[Mecislau]

It's an emphatic particle, one of many particles used in Russian. It's not really possible to provide a simple translation when dealing with a language that has no equivalent. Books have been written about how these types of particles are used.

The two examples Gray Richardson provided sound good to my ears (Что ж нам делать? Кто же дал тебе эту книгу?), but you shouldn't think of "then" as a translation of же. It works in these cases, but it won't in most others.

I don't know of any South Slavic equivalents, at least not used in the modern language, it looks like a cognate of the ђе in такође.

Well, you see it incorporated into relative pronouns in OCS, although that's obviously a very different function than in Russian: иже = "he.NOM who", яже "she.NOM who", егоже "of him.GEN who", etc. (Pardon the anachronistic spelling)

And what is такође? When I first saw it, I thought of также "also" in Russian, but I don't know if this is the same word or not since you didn't translate it. However, no, it doesn't look cognate to me, because the Proto-Slavic form would be *že, which in Serbian would have given же, not ђе, unless something weird happened along the way.

[Niedokonany]

I can't make heads or tails of it, either, I haven't found an entry for it in the Serbo-Croatian etymological dictionary I once downloaded, and yes, apparently it means "also". In addition, it has an alternative form такођер.

What's interesting is that by googling you can find numerous instances of такодје and такоже in what looks like Serbo-Croatian. Dialectal forms? Sth else?

--------------------------------------------------------

Polish has -że as an emphatic bound morpheme; after a vowel, e.g. in interrogative pronouns, a shortened version -ż is generally used (kto > któż, co > cóż, gdzie > gdzież); both are built into various words, as well. Colloquially you can hear a doubled form -żeż.

[Mecislau]

I can't make heads or tails of it, either, I haven't found an entry for it in the Serbo-Croatian etymological dictionary I once downloaded, and yes, apparently it means "also". In addition, it has an alternative form такођер.

What's interesting is that by googling you can find numerous instances of такодје and такоже in what looks like Serbo-Croatian. Dialectal forms? Sth else?

The "full form" ђер makes me wonder if it's not Turkish in origin.

Polish has -że as an emphatic bound morpheme; after a vowel, e.g. in interrogative pronouns, a shortened version -ż is generally used (kto > któż, co > cóż, gdzie > gdzież); both are built into various words, as well. Colloquially you can hear a doubled form -żeż.

If it's bound orthographically like that, can it appear after pretty much any word as in Russian, or is it more restricted?

[Beli Orao]

The two examples Gray Richardson provided sound good to my ears (Что ж нам делать? Кто же дал тебе эту книгу?), but you shouldn't think of "then" as a translation of же. It works in these cases, but it won't in most others.

Thanks, it makes more sense now. I can't really think of a Serbo-Croat equivalent though, except maybe the highly colloquial Turkish loanword "bre." "Ko ti je dao tu knjigu, bre?"

And what is такође? When I first saw it, I thought of также "also" in Russian, but I don't know if this is the same word or not since you didn't translate it.

такође = также, "also." Također is the Croatian form, and to my Serbian ears sounds like an intrusive R, equivalent to "I sawr a car," but for all I know it may be the original form.

However, no, it doesn't look cognate to me, because the Proto-Slavic form would be *že, which in Serbian would have given же, not ђе, unless something weird happened along the way.

In case it is a cognate, the only thing I can think of is analogy. Southern Serbian đe, ođe, nigđe, then *takože > takođe.

[Niedokonany]

The "full form" ђер makes me wonder if it's not Turkish in origin.

Or from Győr... :P

If it's bound orthographically like that, can it appear after pretty much any word as in Russian, or is it more restricted?

Hardly after any word, I'd say in the modern language it appears on imperative verbs, interrogative pronouns, the demonstrative ten/ta/to and as a built-in part of various adverbs and the like, like także, bodajże, przecież. It can also combine with the imperative 1th/3rd person particle niech into niechże... Some of the uses are chiefly literary (with the demonstrative, yielding a meaning close to "the very X", the interrogatives like któż, cóż might also sound slightly pretentious in everyday contexts). On the other hand frequent use of the said -żeż is colloquial and I think regional.

It also forms the most common complementizer, że "that" < *jь-že, with an alternative literary and posh form iż (initial *jь > 0~i also occurs elsewhere in Polish).

In case it is a cognate, the only thing I can think of is analogy. Southern Serbian đe, ođe, nigđe, then *takože > takođe.

Hm, this would make sense. But whence đ in those forms, gd > đ?

[Beli Orao]

Hm, this would make sense. But whence đ in those forms, gd > đ?

gdj > (g)đ. Compare modern standard Serbian "nigde" (nowhere) with ijekavian standard "nigdje" and medieval Serbian "nigđe/niđe." Ijekavian used to be the prestige dialect so I wouldn't be surprised if takođe first developed in ijekavian.

[zmeiat_joro]

Thanks, it makes more sense now. I can't really think of a Serbo-Croat equivalent though, except maybe the highly colloquial Turkish loanword "bre." "Ko ti je dao tu knjigu, bre?"

"бре" comes from Greek, not Turkish. In modern Greek it's "ρε" and in current colloquial Bulgairan it's "бе". They both come from "μωρε". The intermediate form "бре" used to be most common at one point I think, but I think in the long term "море" will outsurvive it when you're trying to deliberately sound archaic, and in colloquial language "бе" has almost completely replaced "бре". "бре" and the derived form "брей" seem like they will survive in a semi-colloquial niche for the purpose of expressing surprise, though, similar to English "wow", rather than as an address.

However, no, it doesn't look cognate to me, because the Proto-Slavic form would be *že, which in Serbian would have given же, not ђе, unless something weird happened along the way.

In case it is a cognate, the only thing I can think of is analogy. Southern Serbian đe, ođe, nigđe, then *takože > takođe.[/quote]
These sound like cognate to Bulgarian къде/(где/де*)(кѫде**), никъде/(нигде/нийде*)(никѫде**) -- where, nowhere.

** modern Soviet-imposed spellings tend to obscure etymology and variations in pronunciation in different dialects with a certain obvious bias.

[Beli Orao]

"бре" comes from Greek, not Turkish. In modern Greek it's "ρε" and in current colloquial Bulgairan it's "бе". They both come from "μωρε". The intermediate form "бре" used to be most common at one point I think, but I think in the long term "море" will outsurvive it when you're trying to deliberately sound archaic, and in colloquial language "бе" has almost completely replaced "бре". "бре" and the derived form "брей" seem like they will survive in a semi-colloquial niche for the purpose of expressing surprise, though, similar to English "wow", rather than as an address.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that the Greek μωρε/ρε also came from Turkish. I didn't know that "more" had the same etymology though, that's interesting. In Serbian I think it has a slightly different meaning than bre, and is obviously a lot more archaic.

These sound like cognate to Bulgarian къде/(где/де*)(кѫде**), никъде/(нигде/нийде*)(никѫде**) -- where, nowhere.

Well that's no surprise seeing as Bulgarian and Serbian are to some degree mutually intelligible, not much different in Bulgarian къде or Serbian где and никъде and Serbian нигде.

[Io]

Yes, it's ultimately from μωρός. Also, whichever form of it you take it just can't be anywhere near же, μωρέ/βρε/ρε/море/бре/бе is more of a vocative interjection of sorts.

[Niedokonany]

What's the origin of -зи in Bulgarian този, онзи?

[Io]

What's the origin of -зи in Bulgarian този, онзи?

I saw it when you asked the previous time, but I still have no clue, I might ask on a buggerian forum and see what they'll say.

[Niedokonany]

What's the origin of -зи in Bulgarian този, онзи?

I saw it when you asked the previous time, but I still have no clue, I might ask on a buggerian forum and see what they'll say.

Mhm, and I could perhaps try asking on Lingvoforum or somewhere.