smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

I've been trying to get a handle on some issues in designing my verbal system lately. They touch on many different topics, so I'm not even sure I can come up with distinct questions, but I'll give it a shot here. The issues primarily revolve around stative vs. dynamic verbs, transitivity, valency, voice, volition, causativity, and verbal semantics. Yeah, there's a lot there.

The language is intended to be as close to "all noun" as possible. I have 2 classes of words right now, which I call "events" and "states", that could be considered as verbal nouns, gerunds, masdars, attributes, etc. Part of the issues I'm facing is trying to pin down precise definitions for these. States incorporate concepts from stative verbs, adverbs, and adjectives, such as "death", "redness", or "quickness". Events are generally dynamic verbs, but also include actions/activities such as "running", where the subject could be considered as actively maintaining a state. As such, volition plays a part. Events also currently have a few sub-classes, which are non-volitional, volitional, and causative.

The basic mechanic for using events and states in a predicate, such as "The man is running" or "The man is dead", is to use a locative construction. Examples:

Code: Select all

man.ABS he-3.SG running-LOC
man     he      running-in
"The man is at/in (the act of) running."
"The man is running."

Code: Select all

man.ABS he-3.SG death-LOC
man     he      death-in
"The man is at/in (a state of) death."
"The man is dead."
You'll note that the language is using pronoun copulas. These will be conjugated for voice, tense, and epistemic modality. Since I am aiming for as close to an "all noun" language as I can get, my pronoun copulas will essentially become my "syntactic verbs". Think of them as an auxiliary verb, with the event or state noun acting as a semantic/lexical content word.

In order to form transitive phrases, I am relying on an affix to the pronoun copula that will inflect it for voice. Or, at least, that's the way I've thought of it. It may actually mark transitivity, valency, or voice, or maybe even a combination of the those. Are there natlangs that mark specifically for transitivity or valency as opposed to voice?

---------------------------------------------------

OK, here's where it starts to get hairy.

The 1st main issue is whether my "transitive affix" will require an additional argument (the ergative) or just make it optional. I think I like the idea of making it optional, and I think this makes the standard, locative construction I showed above into a middle voice. Example:

Code: Select all

stew.ABS it-3.SG cooking-LOC
stew     it      cooking-in
"The stew is at/in (the process of) cooking."
"The stew is cooking."

Code: Select all

stew.ABS it-3.SG-TR cooking-LOC
stew     it         cooking-in
"The stew is at/in (the process of) being cooked."
"The stew is being cooked."

Code: Select all

stew.ABS it-3.SG-TR cooking-LOC chef.ERG
stew     it         cooking-in     chef
"The stew is at/in (the process of) being cooked by the chef."
"The stew is being cooked by the chef."
I'm putting the translations mostly in the English passive voice because 1)the language will make no distinction between active & passive voice, 2) the absolutive argument of my verbs will usually have more patientive than agentive qualities, and 3) my word order is OVS, or more specifically PATIENT-VERB-AGENT, which agrees more with the word order in English's passive voice.

Originally, I was thinking that the "transitive affix" would require the ergative argument. As such, the intranstive would actually translate as the active/passive voice with no agent, as per the 2nd example, and therefore there would be no middle voice.

Does the above paradigm make sense? If so, what should I call them? Are these voices? Should I call them the middle voice, intransitve voice, and transitive voice? There will be no distinction between active & passive, so intransitive & transitive seem to work better. Or, is the affix really just a transitive marker, or a valency marker?

I don't have actual vocabulary yet for the examples. However, would it make it easier to see what I'm thinking if I made up temporary vocabulary?

---------------------------------------------------

Because English is my only language, I'm not sure to what extent the middle voice is used in other languages. Are there languages where the majority or even all verbs can be in the middle voice? How common is this? Are there only certain types of verbs that can be in the middle voice? It seems like some verbs inherently have an agent and/or patient, even if they aren't specifically stated. For instance, "to beat or hit" points to someone striking someone/something else, so I have a hard time seeing this verb in a middle voice. Is this just because of my limited, English-speaking brain?

For some stative verbs, I also have a hard time thinking of what the translation of a middle voice would be. This I'm sure is because I only speak English. I assume that English would have to handle many middle voice statives idiomatically. Would this be an example?

middle - The island is in sight.
passive - The island is seen (by someone).
antipassive - The sailor sees (something).

---------------------------------------------------

As I mentioned above, my event class has sub-classes of non-volitional, volitional, and causative. Because I've been looking at how to handle states, I've started to think that maybe those sub-classes aren't handled correctly. States weren't going to have those sub-classes, but now I'm realizing that maybe they can. Part of it is that some words might work better as states than events, which isn't something I understood before. That realization has come about because of trying to define the difference between states and events better.

An example state w/ the sub-classes might be:

non-volitional - to see
volitional - to look, view, observe
causative - to show

My current definition of events includes "changes of state" (dynamic verbs) and actions/activities, where the subject "actively maintains itself in a current state". To me, that sounds an awful lot like volition. So perhaps volition shouldn't be a sub-class of either events or states, but rather a derivation of a state into an event.

I'm now having a hard time thinking of any dynamic verbs that are non-volitional. This also shows that maybe the non-volitional, volitional, and causative sub-classification of events was misplaced.

Causatives are a similar case. Are there any causative verbs that don't involve a change of state? I can't think of any, and so they also seem like they should be a derivation of a state into an event.

---------------------------------------------------

Where do resultatives fit into all of this? Are they states that are derived from dynamic verbs, being their end result, or are dynamic verbs derived from a state & show the change to that state, or could it be either one, depending on the verbs in question?

---------------------------------------------------

I think I'll stop here. I'm not sure I've gone into all of the issues on this topic, but this is more than enough to get the ball rolling.

Sorry for the long post, but I would very much appreciate any thoughts & input.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

Bob Johnson
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:41 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Bob Johnson »

Erg/abs, OVS, and "no verbs," oh boy. Will the phonology include /θ/, /ɹ/, and a /r/ - /r̝/ contrast too?

Why is the copula required in sentences such as "man.ABS he-3.SG death-LOC"?
What would "man.ABS death-LOC" mean?
Did this develop from a language with "real" verbs?

English doesn't have a grammatical middle voice -- your example is of a cognate noun being applied to the subject via the copula. Semantically, there's still someone who has "sight" who is the agent. I think it's rather common to have no middle voice at all -- and one can avoid the passive by using abstract pronouns such as "one" or "someone."

Resultatives -- make a noun. "He is in the result of death" i.e. "he ended up dying."

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

The two most common kinds of voice-systems are the kind that promote and demote various arguments into and out of various grammatical relations (the kind English has), and the "Basic Voice" systems.
Not having a middle voice is common; having a middle voice is also common.

In "Basic Voice" systems the two biggest voices are "active" and "middle".
Verbs have a "home voice", which is either the active voice or the middle voice.
Some active verbs can be inflected into the middle voice and some can't; some middle verbs can be inflected into the active voice and some can't; some active verbs can be passivized and some can't; and some middle verbs can be passivized and some can't.
IIRC Fula and Tamil are examples of Basic Voice languages.

While English doesn't have "middle voice", it (and every other language) does have "middle diathesis". (ZBBers whose native language includes only the term "voice" or only the term "diathesis" might be confused for a bit here; read on.)
"Diathesis" is the semantic situation that is communicated by "grammatical voice"; "grammatical voice" is the inflectional morphology on the verb that communicates the "diathesis" part of the clause's semantics.

(If your language only includes one of the terms "voice" and "diathesis", you might want to say "semantic voice" for what I call "diathesis", or you might want to say "morphosyntactic diathesis" for what I call "grammatical voice".)

A clause is in a middle diathesis whenever the participant that is most in control is also the one most affected.

For instance, the verbs "seek" and "find" are usually in a middle diathesis; if I seek or find something, I'm in control, but also I'm the one affected.

There are actually 11 different situations in which the diathesis is kind-of middle-ish; I have the paper listing them printed out but I can't find it.

Among them are:
The agent controls which verb is happening but the patient controls all the adverbs (e.g. if I say "this car drives smoothly", I'm in control of the driving, but the car is in control of the smoothness).
The verb is inherently reciprocal (e.g. "meet" or "embrace").
An animate agent doesn't actually exert the control it could have. "I went over to City Hall" would be active-diathesis if I had an appointment and a purpose in mind; "I sort of aimlessly walked around and eventually accidentally wound up at city hall" would be middle-diathesis.
An inanimate agent is left to exert control that could have been taken from it. "A dark cloud hovered over city hall all day" might be in the middle diathesis.
And so on.

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

For voice in general, I highly recommend "Grammatical Voice" by M.H. Klaiman, which can be found at several sites that are hits on this search.

For middle voice and middle diathesis, see especially:
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The_middle_voice,
especially
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... situations,
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... ric_Middle,
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... cal_Middle,
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... ect_Middle,
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... ect_Middle, and
http://www.glottopedia.de/index.php/The ... tion_Types.

https://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/linguipedia/ ... ddle_voice
looks like the official, secure version of the above article.

It's not online, but you might look at:
Kemmer, Suzanne. 1993: The Middle Voice. John Benjamins Publishing Company, Amsterdam/Philadelphia. Series: Typological Studies in Language (TSL), Givón, T. et al. (eds.)

If you need to see it online first,
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 18862.html applies Suzanne Kemmer's 19 (not 11, as I said) middle semantic situations to Greek; in the process it lists here 19 middle situations.

For more articles, see:
this search
this search
and this search.

For a book, see:
http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_book ... id=LA%2050

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:In "Basic Voice" systems the two biggest voices are "active" and "middle".
Verbs have a "home voice", which is either the active voice or the middle voice.
Some active verbs can be inflected into the middle voice and some can't; some middle verbs can be inflected into the active voice and some can't; some active verbs can be passivized and some can't; and some middle verbs can be passivized and some can't.
IIRC Fula and Tamil are examples of Basic Voice languages.
Since your reply, I've read a little about this. I don't think it's exactly what I'm looking for, but seeing it is helpful to get much closer.

TomHChappell wrote:While English doesn't have "middle voice", it (and every other language) does have "middle diathesis". (ZBBers whose native language includes only the term "voice" or only the term "diathesis" might be confused for a bit here; read on.)
"Diathesis" is the semantic situation that is communicated by "grammatical voice"; "grammatical voice" is the inflectional morphology on the verb that communicates the "diathesis" part of the clause's semantics.

(If your language only includes one of the terms "voice" and "diathesis", you might want to say "semantic voice" for what I call "diathesis", or you might want to say "morphosyntactic diathesis" for what I call "grammatical voice".)
The concept of voice vs. diathesis is new to me, but it makes perfect sense. I think I would prefer the terms "morphosyntactic voice" and "semantic voice", but to each their own.

I knew that English doesn't have a middle grammatical voice (to use your terms), but I wasn't sure what to call sentences like "The window broke". Nice to have "diathesis" or "semantic voice" added to my vocabulary.

TomHChappell wrote:For voice in general, I highly recommend "Grammatical Voice" by M.H. Klaiman, which can be found at several sites that are hits on this search.
Before you added this additional reply, I actually came across this on Google books. Definitely some good info in there!

I've only looked at this very quickly, but the Glottopedia site looks like a great resource for linguistics! Thank you! You might want to put this in the resources thread if it isn't there already.


In addition to the other links you provided, I found a pdf of a paper arguing for the Middle as a Basic Voice System. This was really useful in describing how the middle voice (or diathesis) might be usable as the basic voice. I think it also mentioned something about reflexivity showing volition, which I rather like. I'll have to play with it.

I do think I'm gaining some clarity on the design issues, beyond just the vocabulary to use. For at least some of my verbs, I think the middle diathesis will be default. For others, maybe not. I'll have to figure out a bunch of different cases and see. Also, once that's settled, I need to see how that ends up mapping onto the morphosyntactic structures I have in mind. I have 2 possibilities, which I sort of discussed above. I need to clarify those a bit more as well, but I think I have a start on it.

Thanks for the help so far.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:In addition to the other links you provided, I found a pdf of a paper arguing for the Middle as a Basic Voice System.
Yes, Maldonado's analysis makes "Middle Voice" sound semantically similar to "Introversive Version". In fact some definitions of "Introversive Version" are just about identical to some of the definitions of "Middle Voice" he quoted.

"Introversive version" has sometimes been defined as "the action stays within the agent"; Ricardo Maldonado's definition of middle, "the agent stays within the sphere of the action", is a better definition of "introversive" IMO. To show that it's better, consider the examples of running in place and of painting one's own house, both of which are "introversive" in some languages, such as Georgian, that have "version". Running in place is introversive running -- the action staying within the agent -- but painting one's own house is also introversive housepainting (articles about languages that have version say so) -- and in that case, the agent stays within the sphere of the action, rather than the action staying within the agent..

The classical definition of Middle Voice is that it is used when the Subject (or is it Agent?) and/or their/her/his/its interests are also (saliently, insofar as the speaker wishes to communicate) affected. That sounds much more related to "reflexive". Clearly, painting one's own house (rather than somebody else's) is affecting one's own interests; so it's "middle" in the classical sense, as well as introversive.

And BTW thanks for that link! It's worth reading and maybe worth including on the Resources thread.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

Are there verbs or categories of verbs that can't be in a middle voice/diathesis? Or, perhaps more broadly, are there any verbs or verbal categories that can't be rephrased in a middle voice/diathesis, possibly with a different verb or syntactic structure?


If the answer is no or close to it, then I think I have a pretty good handle on how my "transitive suffix" will work, and it's just a matter of selecting the best name for it. If the answer is yes, then I need to do more thinking on how to handle different types of verbs.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:Are there verbs or categories of verbs that can't be in a middle voice/diathesis? Or, perhaps more broadly, are there any verbs or verbal categories that can't be rephrased in a middle voice/diathesis, possibly with a different verb or syntactic structure?


If the answer is no or close to it, then I think I have a pretty good handle on how my "transitive suffix" will work, and it's just a matter of selecting the best name for it. If the answer is yes, then I need to do more thinking on how to handle different types of verbs.
I think any verb can be "middleized" by reflexivizing it. (e.g. kill --> suicide)
I think any verb can be "transitivized" by causativizing it. (e.g. die --> kill)

Those processes may have no morphological, and maybe also no syntactic, parallel in a given language;
but the semantic transformations are always possible, IMO.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:I think any verb can be "middleized" by reflexivizing it. (e.g. kill --> suicide)
I think any verb can be "transitivized" by causativizing it. (e.g. die --> kill)

Those processes may have no morphological, and maybe also no syntactic, parallel in a given language;
but the semantic transformations are always possible, IMO.
I was thinking about verbs in the middle voice/diathesis that aren't reflexive. However, I'm wondering if having my default/unmarked structure carry a reflexive meaning depending on the verb(content noun) and context might actually be a solution.

I believe I'm making progress in defining my state & action classes. States will probably be stative, never dynamic, and also never volitional. I mentioned above that actions would involve a subject that "actively maintains itself in a current state", which involves conscious effort: volition. Causatives imply a change of state, and so would be actions as well.

This is how I'm currently thinking about the default/unmarked construction:

For the state class, the default/unmarked construction would be a stative/adjectival meaning:

Code: Select all

dog.ABS it-3.SG blackness-LOC
dog     it      blackness-in
"The dog is at/in (a state of) blackness."
"The dog is black."
For actions where volition is not required from the patient if the agent is not present, the default/unmarked construction is a fairly typical (?) middle diathesis: the subject is the patient, and whether there is an agent is left unstated and completely ambiguous.

Code: Select all

stew.ABS it-3.SG cooking-LOC
stew     it      cooking-in
"The stew is at/in (the process of) cooking."
"The stew is cooking."
I could see a middle diathesis for subjects that are incapable of volition as well. Take, for example, a host on a cooking show talking about the preparations going into cooking the meal.

Code: Select all

meat.ABS it-3.SG cutting-LOC
meat     it      cutting-in
"The meat is at/in (the process of) cutting."
"The meat is cutting."   (Probably said several times in a row as the chef goes through the process.)
For actions where volition is required and the patient/subject is capable of volition, the agent is still left ambiguous. However, from context you might be able to get a reflexive meaning, or it may be that the agent is unknown, and perhaps it seems like there isn't an agent.

Code: Select all

man.ABS he-3.SG bathing-LOC
man     he      bathing-in
"The man is at/in (the process of) bathing (himself?)."
"The man is bathing (himself?)."
Here, it's most likely that the man is reflexively bathing himself. He COULD be being bathed by someone else, but it's probably not the case, and isn't stated anyway.

Code: Select all

man.ABS it-3.SG cutting-LOC
man     he      cutting-in
"The man is at/in (the process of) cutting (himself???)."
"The man is cutting (himself???)." 
In this example, the assumption is probably going to be that the man is cutting himself, especially if there is no one else around to do it since the action generally requires volition by an agent. Or, imagine that this is in a horror movie, and a man is being cut. His friends all see this, and also see that he's not doing it to himself, but there is also no apparent cause! The use of the default/unmarked construction (and therefore a middle voice) also becomes something of a mirative, expressing surprise at the situation.


Separate, formal reflexive constructions will exist. For states that can be transitive (I.E., "The man sees the dog."), a reflexive construction will be required to communicate a reflexive diathesis. For actions where the implication is that the default/unmarked contruction is a reflexive diathesis, the reflexive contruction will simply add emphasis. This is apparently a common use of the reflexive, given what I've read in this paper: Middle Voice Marking in Tibeto-Burman.


I still need to figure out what happens in the cases of adding volition or causation. I don't know if I'll do it morphosyntactically or lexically. I was going to handle it syntactically, but it seems like making a clause transitive adds either volition or causation. However, I feel like the above outline makes some sense & it's starting to take shape.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

That all looks reasonable to me. (Of course I'm not the one it has to look reasonable to! :) )

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_lan ... refixes.29, if you feel like it; it might interest you, whether or not you end up using it in this conlang.

Also, look up about verb classifiers, about preverbs, and about coverbs (not converbs!). Those can give you some ideas about how to express what you want to express. Again, I don't see how you can use all of it in just one conlang, and you may end up not using any of it.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_g ... bal_system. Georgian has "medial verbs"; AIUI these aren't quite the same as "middle verbs", but may be somewhat similar. It also has a version marker.
See http://www.nthuleen.com/papers/L12paper.html.

I couldn't find, by searching, anything else about "version" of verbs (though, at least for Georgian, that should be plenty).

I'm pretty sure there are some non-European non-West Asian languages that have it, too, but I couldn't find them in 15 minutes of searching.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:That all looks reasonable to me. (Of course I'm not the one it has to look reasonable to! :) )
Good! It seemed that way, but it's always good to have a 2nd opinion.

TomHChappell wrote:See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_lan ... refixes.29, if you feel like it; it might interest you, whether or not you end up using it in this conlang.
Those actually look VERY much like what I have in mind for my "transitive affixes", the main difference being that mine will be inflect the pronoun copula rather than the verb (content noun) directly.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
Skomakar'n
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:05 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Skomakar'n »

Hahaha. This is always entertaining to see as a Swede.
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/

#undef FEMALE

I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

Skomakar'n wrote:Hahaha. This is always entertaining to see as a Swede.
Glad I could entertain you. :D There are days when I really hate being a native English speaker.

Is this because of the "dynamic" vs. "static" passive in Swedish? I just did a quick search on Wikipedia since I don't have much time atm, and that was all I found. Give me at least a little credit for trying to expand my horizons!

Also, I picked up a pdf from Jstor on middle voice semantics in Somali. Quite helpful!
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
Aszev
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:43 am
Location: í Svéalandi
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Aszev »

It's probably because of the smörgåsbord title.
Image CERVENIAN
Image JELSH
Miekko wrote:protip: no one wants to learn your conlangs. if they claim different, it's just to be friendly. this is true for all conlangers.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

Aszev wrote:It's probably because of the smörgåsbord title.
Good point. :P
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:Also, I picked up a pdf from Jstor on middle voice semantics in Somali. Quite helpful!
My library couldn't get me "Agreement", but they will get me "the Middle Voice".

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:My library couldn't get me "Agreement"...
Which one is that?
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Travis B. »

Vardelm wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:Hahaha. This is always entertaining to see as a Swede.
Glad I could entertain you. :D There are days when I really hate being a native English speaker.

Is this because of the "dynamic" vs. "static" passive in Swedish? I just did a quick search on Wikipedia since I don't have much time atm, and that was all I found. Give me at least a little credit for trying to expand my horizons!
Actually, at least everyday North American English has a contrast between a dynamic and a static passive; i.e. get-passives are dynamic while be-passives are static.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:My library couldn't get me "Agreement"...
Which one is that?
This one.

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

TomHChappell wrote:My library couldn't get me "Agreement", but they will get me "the Middle Voice".
OK, they got me Susan Kemmer's "The Middle Voice".

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

Couple of questions:

1) The middle diathesis has the subject as the patient. The agent is either completely absent or is implied to be the subject (often in a reflexive/reciprocal sense). That being the case, would the subject of verbs that show a state of emotion in the middle voice be the person that feels the emotion or the person that is the object/focus of that emotion? Similar to #1, what about verbs of other relationships, such as perception, ownership/possession, etc?

2) In Lexical Semantics, Rick Morneau gives an example of the middle voice: "Mice kill easily". This seems like something of a “potential mood”, which says that "mice are able to be killed easily". I've seen the middle voice having reflexive, reciprocal, autobenefactive, and "full exploitative" meanings, but nothing to quantify this potential meaning. Is this a valid example of the middle voice, and is using the middle voice as a potential common?
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:Couple of questions:

1) The middle diathesis has the subject as the patient. The agent is either completely absent or is implied to be the subject (often in a reflexive/reciprocal sense).
No, that's not all there is to it.

Vardelm wrote:That being the case, would the subject of verbs that show a state of emotion in the middle voice be the person that feels the emotion or the person that is the object/focus of that emotion?
According to Kemmer, in many languages, yes.

Vardelm wrote:Similar to #1, what about verbs of other relationships, such as perception, ownership/possession, etc??
I don't know yet.

Vardelm wrote:2) In Lexical Semantics, Rick Morneau gives an example of the middle voice: "Mice kill easily". This seems like something of a “potential mood”, which says that "mice are able to be killed easily". I've seen the middle voice having reflexive, reciprocal, autobenefactive, and "full exploitative" meanings, but nothing to quantify this potential meaning. Is this a valid example of the middle voice, and is using the middle voice as a potential common?
Yes, it's valid; it's what Kemmer calls "the facilitative middle".
Sometimes the patient has partial control. In this case the patient controls the adverb, though not the verb.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:
Vardelm wrote:That being the case, would the subject of verbs that show a state of emotion in the middle voice be the person that feels the emotion or the person that is the object/focus of that emotion?
According to Kemmer, in many languages, yes.
Erm, which one? Highlight added in the quote to add clarity.

TomHChappell wrote:Yes, it's valid; it's what Kemmer calls "the facilitative middle".
Sometimes the patient has partial control. In this case the patient controls the adverb, though not the verb.
Ah, good! I'm glad I'm not off the deep end on this one. I'd be interested to also know if the facilitative (or the other types of middle) tend to show up for a particular group of verb (emotions, perceptions, etc.) or if it's specific to each individual verb.

Speaking of Rick Morneau and the article, I think one of the things tripping me up is how to handle what he calls "focus". I apparently haven't quite decided on how to exactly handle each thematic relation, and since focus can have characteristics of several different thematic roles, I need to figure out how those will map onto the different constructions I have. Hence the question about the subject of emotions.
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

TomHChappell
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by TomHChappell »

Vardelm wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:
Vardelm wrote:That being the case, would the subject of verbs that show a state of emotion in the middle voice be the person that feels the emotion or the person that is the object/focus of that emotion?
According to Kemmer, in many languages, yes.
Erm, which one? Highlight added in the quote to add clarity.
Sorry: The person having the emotion would be the subject of a middle-voice clause about someone having an emotion.

Vardelm wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:Yes, it's valid; it's what Kemmer calls "the facilitative middle".
Sometimes the patient has partial control. In this case the patient controls the adverb, though not the verb.
Ah, good! I'm glad I'm not off the deep end on this one. I'd be interested to also know if the facilitative (or the other types of middle) tend to show up for a particular group of verb (emotions, perceptions, etc.) or if it's specific to each individual verb.
Kemmer lists about 13 types of middle, if I remember correctly. I left the book in my car. But I'll bring it in, when I have the time, and post a list of them.
Some of them are specific to particular kinds of verbs; emotions, mental judgements, mental states, postures and non-translational motion, etc. Others (IIRC the "facilitative middle" is one, IIRC the "logophoric middle" another) might apply to practically any verb, at least AFAICT.
In some two-word verbs, the unexpressed or implicit agent might have control of one part while the patient-subject might have control of the other part. Say your verb consists of a light verb plus a content-word; maybe the agent has control of the light verb but the patient has control of the content-word or vice-versa. Or, if you have an auxiliary word plus a main verb, maybe the patient-subject has control of the auxiliary word while the unexpressedd agent has control of the main verb, or vice-versa.
I think those might possibly also qualify as "facilitative middle".

Vardelm wrote:Speaking of Rick Morneau and the article, I think one of the things tripping me up is how to handle what he calls "focus". I apparently haven't quite decided on how to exactly handle each thematic relation, and since focus can have characteristics of several different thematic roles, I need to figure out how those will map onto the different constructions I have. Hence the question about the subject of emotions.
Please be advised that R.A.M.'s use of the word "focus" is not like the use of that word in any other linguistic literature.
Aikhenvald, Dixon & Onishi refer to an "Extended Core Argument". This is an argument which is grammatically required, and also semantically required, but is not the most Agent-like (e.g. maybe it has no control) and not the most Patient-like (e.g. maybe it isn't affected). It's usually the most "involved" participant other than the Agent and Patient, if there is an Agent and a Patient.

They give four case-frames for most clauses in most languages:
Subject if there's only one argument and it is most Agent-like and also most Patient-like
Actor and Undergoer if there are two core participants and one is most Agent-like and the other most Patient-like (ordinary transitive clauses)
Subject and Extended-core-term if there are two required core participants but one is at the same time the most Agent-like and the most Patient-like, while the other is neither (e.g. "S found E"); these clauses might be thought of as "bivalent intransitive clauses"
Actor, Undergoer, and Extended-core-term (e.g. ordinary ditransitive clauses).

The "Extended core term" in their terminology is much like the "Focus" in Morneau's.

Vardelm
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact:

Re: smorgasbord of verbal design issues

Post by Vardelm »

TomHChappell wrote:Sorry: The person having the emotion would be the subject of a middle-voice clause about someone having an emotion.
Thanks! I had to reread my original question several times, so it wasn't phrased in the clearest manner.

TomHChappell wrote:Kemmer lists about 13 types of middle, if I remember correctly. I left the book in my car. But I'll bring it in, when I have the time, and post a list of them.
Actually, I had time to do a bit of searching today, & found the list here.

TomHChappell wrote:Please be advised that R.A.M.'s use of the word "focus" is not like the use of that word in any other linguistic literature.
Absolutely. I like his terminology & approach, perhaps because I've been around engineers & programmers so much, but I realize it sometimes doesn't follow "linguistic standards".
Tibetan Dwarvish - My own ergative "dwarf-lang"

Quasi-Khuzdul - An expansion of J.R.R. Tolkien's Dwarvish language from The Lord of the Rings

Post Reply