"become an X"

[linguoboy]

Bli(va) is from Middle Low German bliven.

Why did they change? Someone should have said "Don't stop... bliven...".

It's an odd meaning shift, given that blieven in modern Low Saxon means "stay" and the usual word for "become" is cognate to werden and varda. Was this a Middle Low German innovation that's been rolled back due to High German influence?

[Magb]

Bli(va) is from Middle Low German bliven.

Why did they change? Someone should have said "Don't stop... bliven...".

It's an odd meaning shift, given that blieven in modern Low Saxon means "stay" and the usual word for "become" is cognate to werden and varda. Was this a Middle Low German innovation that's been rolled back due to High German influence?

Bli(va/ve) can mean "stay" in Scandinavian as well, so I guess it's possible that the semantic shift happened after the word was loaned.

[Aszev]

Hellquist's etymological dictionary claims that the newer meaning of the word was probably already present in Middle Low German.

[Niedokonany]

Bli(va) is from Middle Low German bliven.

Why did they change? Someone should have said "Don't stop... bliven...".

It's an odd meaning shift, given that blieven in modern Low Saxon means "stay" and the usual word for "become" is cognate to werden and varda. Was this a Middle Low German innovation that's been rolled back due to High German influence?

Not that odd, if you assume it began in resultative contexts like "in the bombing, this house was obliterated but that one remained, severely damaged".

[merijn]

In Dutch the word for become is "worden", a strong verb that is also used in the passive construction.

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I worked as a research assistant on a project about non-verbal predication and "to become" was one of the things that we looked at. In many languages the word for become is the same as to be in some tenses. In many of those languages they use a non-verbal strategy in the present tense of "be" (that is, they have a null copula or a copular particle in the present tense) and a verbal strategy for "become" (that is, they have a verb meaning become). In other tenses the verb that means "become" in the present tense is also used for "be" in other tense. In those languages "he became a doctor" and "he was a doctor" are usually the same. I believe Swahili is such a language.


+++

In Zulu the situation is very complicated. If we limit ourselves to nominal predication: In the third person of the indicative present tense "to be" is formed by prefixing the noun with a copular particle, which has various forms depending on the noun that follows and on the dialect and register. So if teacher is "umfindisi" "He is a teacher" is "Ng-umfundisi". In some educational grammars this combination is called the copular base (CB). In the 1st and 2nd person the subject agreement is prefixed to the CB. So "I am a teacher" is "ngi-ng-umfundisi". In Zulu there exists what people call a submood that is called the participial. It has many uses one of which is where English would use whlie. For instance "e-khala" means "while he is crying". The participial is marked by having a special set of subject agreement and the way to form the participial present tense of "be" is just like the 1st and 2nd person, by prefixing the CB with this special subject agreement, so the form for "while he is a teacher" is "e-ng-umfundisi". Now one of the other uses of the participial present tense is to combine with a form of the auxiliary -be to form what is the Zulu equivalent of the English continuous tenses. So combined with the future form of -be (-zo- is the future tense marker, u- is the normal 3rd preson singular subject agreement) "u-zo-be e-khala" means "he will be crying". That is exactly how most of the other tenses of "to be" are formed, so "he will be a teacher" is "u-zo-be e-ng-umfundisi".
For become the etymologically related verb -ba is used followed by the CB (remember, that was the copular article followed by the noun) "u-ba ng-umfundisi" means "he becomes a teacher", and "u-zo-ba ng-umfundisi" means "he will become a teacher". In some tenses the form of -ba is the same as the -be, so the only way to differentiate between the two is the presence of the subject agreement before the CB; "u-be e-ng-umfinisi" means "I was a teacher" and "u-be ng-umfundisi" means I became teacher. There are also a handful of tenses where the construction with -be is not available, and in these cases -ba means both become and be. Examples are the infinitive: uku-ba ng-umfundisi means both "to be a teacher" and "to become a teacher", and the imperative yi-ba ng-umfundisi means both "be a teacher" and "become a teacher"

[Izambri]

In Catalan you use the verb ésser or ser "to be".

Fer-se monjo "To become a monk"
Fer-se protestant "To become protestant"
Fer-se cap-rapat "To become a skinhead"
Fer-se arquitecte "To become an arquitect"

Fer-se is the infinitive of "to be" with the reflexive weak pronoun; literally "to do to oneself". It's used a lot for professions, activities, etc., but to say things like "to become a mother" we would only use the infinitve: Ser mare "to be mother"; alternatively esdevenir mare "to become mother" o convertir-se en mare "to self become into mother".

[Jipí]

I feel very bad for necroing your response from page 1...

Sie will Ärztin werden. "She wants to be(come) a doctor."
Sie will Ärztin sein. "She claims to be a doctor."

This is all correct, but I think Sie will Ärztin sein could also mean that, given the context, she wants to do her job, but is currently hindered from practicing it for whatever reason. I hope this isn't splitting hairs too much.

My conlang, lacking 'to be', has a verb tav- which means 'to become, to get' (Hello English, nice to meet you!) which would be used in this case:

• Ang no tavye karovayās.
  AF want become-3SF-FOC doctor-P
  'She wants to become a doctor.'

I guess 'She wants to be a doctor' could be translated this way:

• No gumyeng ku-karovaya.
  want work-3SF.A like=doctor
  'She wants to work as a doctor.'

[Vardelm]

Hey, this turned into a great thread! Lots of good info in here. It's been very useful. Thank you all!

[schwhatever]

DISCLAIMER: I am not a native or fluent Russian speaker

Russian does something really weird. It doesn't differentiate between what you could call "alienable" and "inalienable" roles like it does elsewhere (namely the copula):

Он мой брат. - He's my brother (brother in nominative)
Я студентом. - I'm a student (student in instrumental)

Я стану папой. - I will become a father (father in instrumental)
Мой брат стал врачом. - My brother became a doctor (doctor in instrumental)

Otherwise, however, it's pretty straightforward - the subject is the person whose role is changing (or has changed or whatever) and the role seems to be part of a predicate with the verb стать which means to become or to grow (it can also mean stand, it's pretty idiomatic generally). The only other weirdness is that the corresponding imperfective seems to always be reflexive:

Ты становишься аспирантом? - You're becoming (yourself) a graduate student?

[Avjunza]

In my conlang Niocaciu, this construction is very common; the verb 'cambi' means become/change/grow.

A cambiso e cazos.
Lit. 'I will become a father.'/'I am going to be a father.'

Va cambil ce he bontas!
Lit. 'You grew to a mountain!'/'You grew very big.'

Inia cambinia e desiuros.
Lit. 'She's becoming a bear.'/'She's getting angry.'

Vezi cambigie alid senbrecis.
Lit. 'You-[PL] become-[IMP] my shadows.'/Follow me (and be ready to serve).'

Azith vo cambiso e unefos?
Lit. 'Will you change ship?'/'Are you going to disagree (with me)?'

[Vardelm]

In my conlang Niocaciu, this construction is very common; the verb 'cambi' means become/change/grow.

A cambiso e cazos.
Lit. 'I will become a father.'/'I am going to be a father.'

Va cambil ce he bontas!
Lit. 'You grew to a mountain!'/'You grew very big.'

Inia cambinia e desiuros.
Lit. 'She's becoming a bear.'/'She's getting angry.'

Vezi cambigie alid senbrecis.
Lit. 'You-[PL] become-[IMP] my shadows.'/Follow me (and be ready to serve).'

Azith vo cambiso e unefos?
Lit. 'Will you change ship?'/'Are you going to disagree (with me)?'

Oooo.... I like the idioms!

[hwhatting]

DISCLAIMER: I am not a native or fluent Russian speaker

Russian does something really weird. It doesn't differentiate between what you could call "alienable" and "inalienable" roles like it does elsewhere (namely the copula):

Он мой брат. - He's my brother (brother in nominative)
Я студентом. - I'm a student (student in instrumental)

Your second example is wrong - when the copula is dropped (in the present tense) you can't use the instrumental, only the nominative case. The distinction you mention works only when there is a form of the copula present, i.e. in the past or future tense..

[Niedokonany]

So you say он был его брат but он был учеником? I've never heard about that before, thought it's the nominative without a copula and the instrumental with a copula. How is it defined exactly?

[Xonen]

muuttua/bunch of other verbs + noun in the -ksi case

The most important in said bunch of other verbs being tulla "to come". Indeed tulla + [TRANSLATIVE] is, I believe, the usual dictionary translation for "to become". I think muuttua + [TRANSLATIVE] more closely matches English "to change/turn (into sth)", although obviously there's no clear one-to-one correspondence in the shades of meaning between the various Finnish and English constructions.

[Miekko]

muuttua/bunch of other verbs + noun in the -ksi case

The most important in said bunch of other verbs being tulla "to come". Indeed tulla + [TRANSLATIVE] is, I believe, the usual dictionary translation for "to become". I think muuttua + [TRANSLATIVE] more closely matches English "to change/turn (into sth)", although obviously there's no clear one-to-one correspondence in the shades of meaning between the various Finnish and English constructions.

With nouns as the complement, it's my intuition that muuttua is somewhat more common than with adjectives? Altho' now that I rethink it, tulla probably still is more common.

[hwhatting]

So you say он был его брат but он был учеником? I've never heard about that before, thought it's the nominative without a copula and the instrumental with a copula. How is it defined exactly?

I'm not a native speaker, but I'd say it's the difference between defining a member of a class (instrumental) and identifying a concrete individual (nominative):
Он был студентом.
Он был тот судент, который всегда исправлял профессора. (We're talking about a concrete individual.)
Он был тем студеннтом, который всегда исправлял профессора. (There is this type of student, and he was one of them.)

Perhaps a native speaker can confirm or corrrect my impression.

[Tximist]

Chinese has a verb 当 dāng meaning "to be/act as/serve as" in the way you'd use be/become in English, so

我想当消防队员！
I want to be(come) a fireman!

她不想当母亲
She doesn't want to be(come) a mother

[Astraios]

Do they use it for "becoming a <noun>" as opposed to regular verbs? Do they allow for other aspects to be used at the same time, so as to say "becoming" vs. "have become", etc.?

Lakota does both of these.

It uses several verbs and auxiliaries to express "become", and it doesn't really have a verb "be" (it has a classificatory verb, an identificatory verb, and a few others, but no single verb means "be" all the time):

áyA to gradually become (change in gradual and cumulative progress)
aú to gradually become (change in progress)
ahí to have become (change completed)

The etymology of the above three auxiliaries is:

áyA < a- + yÁ (carrying.smth- + go.there.PROG)
aú < a- + ú (carrying.smth- + come.here.PROG)
ahí < a- + hí (carrying.smth- + come.here.PERF)

There is a prefix ki- (homophonous with the dative and possessive prefixes) which can be attached to some words, meaning "become again; become what one was before" (some contemporary speakers just use it for "become", with no sense of becoming "again", as in the second example):

kiní to come back to life (< ki- + ní "be alive")
kiwíčhaša to become a man (again) (< ki- + wičháša "man")

Another two auxiliaries mean (according to the New Lakota Dictionary) "become suddenly":

hiŋglÁ, iyáyA

(So maybe these would be inchoatives? Unsure.)

[Bristel]

muuttua/bunch of other verbs + noun in the -ksi case

The most important in said bunch of other verbs being tulla "to come". Indeed tulla + [TRANSLATIVE] is, I believe, the usual dictionary translation for "to become". I think muuttua + [TRANSLATIVE] more closely matches English "to change/turn (into sth)", although obviously there's no clear one-to-one correspondence in the shades of meaning between the various Finnish and English constructions.

This is the only Finnish word that I can remember by using some sort of mnemonic like "muuttua is mutate".