Phonemic distinction labialized/rounded environments

[jal]

Well, I've created better titles, but anyway. I was wondering if any natlang has the following phonemic distinctions:

1) CʷwV vs. CwV (e.g. kʷwa vs. kwa)
2) CʷV[+round] vs. CV[+round] (e.g. kʷo vs. ko)

I would guess no for the first, yes for the second, but I thought I'd ask around.


JAL

[roninbodhisattva]

1) I don't know
2) Yes.

[Radius Solis]

1. I don't know
2. Standard English, e.g. quote - coat.

[jal]

2. Standard English, e.g. quote - coat.

I would think quote/coat would be a case of [kʷwo] (or [kwo]) vs. [ko]?


JAL

[Drydic]

2. Standard English, e.g. quote - coat.

I would think quote/coat would be a case of [kʷwo] (or [kwo]) vs. [ko]?


JAL

Which is what he said, basically. Unless there's an invisible 3rd kʷwV vs kV option in your post.

[Radius Solis]

I would think quote/coat would be a case of [kʷwo] (or [kwo]) vs. [ko]?
JAL

Time to look this up.

Maddieson and Ladefoged in SWL (1996) say that there are apparently no languages in which the labial component of [kʷ] is not either later or earlier than the velar component (which is also true of [k͡p]). The languages in which it is earlier are rare. For the rest, [kʷ] = [kw].

It's possible to make subjective arguments about the duration of the [w] component, or the degree to which the [k] component shows anticipatory rounding before the [w] component - but as no language is known (at least to SWL) to make a contrast on either basis, there seems little point.

[CaesarVincens]

Although of course we can't ask any speakers, Latin does distinguish <qui> /kwiː/ and <cui> /kui/.

The former is monosyllablic and the latter disyllabic, but both are bimoraic (which could be said to be more important in Latin following Armin Mester, 1994).

[Bedelato]

By certain accounts, Proto-Indo-European had a (marginal?) contrast between *kw and *kʷ.

[Radius Solis]

Relevant to the foregoing discussion is a post today on Language Log.

In particular, this part:

... the phonological distinction between a doubly-articulated consonant and a cluster is not always phonetically plain — most consonant clusters are heavily co-articulated, and things that seem to be clearly single segments on phonotactic grounds (like aspirated stops in English, or /k͡p/ and /ɡ͡b/ in many African languages) nevertheless often have reliably sequenced sub-parts which correspond to things that might be independent segments in another context. This is one of many ways in which the "discrete beads on a string" nature of phonetic symbol sequences is articulatorily and acoustically misleading.

[jal]

Thanks for that link (and thanks to everyone who responded so far).


JAL

[spats]

By certain accounts, Proto-Indo-European had a (marginal?) contrast between *kw and *kʷ.

Isn't it actually between *ḱw and *kʷ?

In which case, you're talking about two different stops, one of which could coarticulate phonemically and one of which could not.

[sangi39]

I was only using word-initial sounds here but I was searching through the PIE-English word list in Mallory and Adams' book on PIE and found this:

1) *kʷ vs. *kw does exist but I could find any word-initial instances of *kʷw within this word list
2) instances of word-initial *ḱ vs. *kj do not exist in this word list but there are instances of both *ḱw and *ḱj

I'm not sure what his means (or if it means anything at all) but I thought I'd post it anyway

[jal]

I had to look twice on my tiny laptop screen to see that k-with hook-thingy, it looked like an ordinary k. So what is the hook (or bend) thing? Can't find it in the IPA table.


JAL

[Tropylium⁺]

I had to look twice on my tiny laptop screen to see that k-with hook-thingy, it looked like an ordinary k. So what is the hook (or bend) thing? Can't find it in the IPA table.

It's a k with acute, which is PIE transcription for the palatovelar stop (so something like [kʲ] or [c]).

[jal]

It's a k with acute, which is PIE transcription for the palatovelar stop (so something like [kʲ] or [c]).

Ah yeah, thanks. IE9 displays it as an acute, but FF3 on Ubuntu made it look like a bend or hook attached to the k.


JAL